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Are you in favour of primary LGBT lessons for young children?

Discussion in 'Education news' started by TES_Rosaline, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. imam77

    imam77 New commenter

    going down a bad road ............
  2. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    it is nothing like that at all. Do you understand anything about statistics? There is absolutely no comparison what so ever between an increase from one-in-a-million to two-in-a-million and going from zero to one-in-200 rapists in the country being "female"!

    And how is it "scaremongering"? Its fact. Why is telling you a fact "scaremongering"???
    BetterNow and num3bers like this.
  3. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    well, it would be total gibberish, wouldn't it, as gender-identity is purely a personal choice, so what you are saying is am I trying to deny that some people feel that they are not the gender that they feel they are?
  4. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    If I may - I would not deny that some people feel they are born into a body incongruent with their gender. But that is not the issue. The issue when teaching, as I have found out, is how you deal with that.

    A certain lobby want the matter of their feelings ( that they feel, or more accurately, believe they are a woman in a mans body or vice versa) dealt with as fact of their biology ( that they are a woman born into a mans body) . Therein is the lie ( or the delusion of the misconception whatever you want to call it).

    That is a denial of science ; of fact; of reality. Nor do I personally believe it is normal and I don't want my children taught that it is. One of the first lessons I give in my subject is that there are beliefs ( which we call assumptions actually) and there are facts. Sometimes facts support the assumptions, sometimes they do not. It is the job of a good critical thinker and a scientist to ensure they understand where facts support the assumption and where they do not.

    In this case, the facts do not support the beliefs. Facts do not care about your feelings or your beliefs. It seems to me that by attempting to force us to teach that such beliefs/ feelings etc. trump the facts is a lie.
    I dont mind of some people want to believe they are a unicorn or a horse or even that they have a missing limb ( and there are people who have such a body identity disorder, although in that instance we do not go around cutting off a limb, we treat the thinking pattern as in congruent and mal - adaptive) What I do mind about is teaching my kids this is normal in any sense of the word, when it is not as it does not accord with fact or have any concurrence with reality or reason. Neither am I happy teaching it as such.

    Its amongst the reasons I am looking to give up teaching as soon as possible . I can no longer teach what I consider to be lies and I do not want it taught to my children either. That may sound harsh. Its no doubt controversial and there are those ( and are they the normal and the majority?) who would like me to be sacked for what I have just said above.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
  5. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    exactly, and this particular lie is extremely dangerous and damaging to all the girls we teach, as, contradictory to all our other efforts to tell girls that they are as good as boys, and can do anything that boys do, this lie perpetuates the myth that there is some genuine fundamental difference between male and female brains, because these people are in effect claiming that they have a female brain inside a male body.

    I am supposed to teach my tutor group about sexual equality in PSHE, then when the bell rings, walk down the hall into my science class room, stand in front of many of the same students, and tell them the exact opposite.
    timwallach, BetterNow and vannie like this.
  6. Eszett

    Eszett New commenter

    I respect that as a scientist you have a particular understanding of what a woman is and you don't want to betray that. However, as a linguist, it is equally obvious to me that the same word (e.g. "woman") will always have slightly different meanings in different social contexts and that meanings evolve over time. There is no one correct definition of "woman". In biology the word is used differently than in sociology, in law or in everyday conversations.

    If you are a transwoman's doctor, it is entirely correct and appropriate for you to point out to her that as she is a transwoman rather than a biological woman, you might consider a different course of treatment for an illness etc. (and I think very few transwomen would contest that).
    However, if you are a transwoman's neighbour or colleague, the only correct and appropriate way for you to refer to her is as a "woman", as it is not your place to lecture her on her chromosomes or question her hormone levels. I see nothing "untruthful" in this whatsoever, it is merely a polite and respectful use of the word that makes complete sense within the sort of social interaction that you are going to have with her.
    The reporting of crime statistics is a tricky issue, but whichever position journalists choose to take, I don't see how that should have any bearing on the way we behave towards average law-abiding transgender people we meet in our neighbourhoods and communities.

    A student going to a large school of 1000 pupils or more is likely to meet or see a transgender student at some point. Many kids, to their credit, want to be kind and respectful. They should know how. The use of socially appropriate words is one way.
  7. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter


    Mirror.co.uk, Matthew Pover, 6th January 2019.
    BetterNow and num3bers like this.
  8. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Neither correct nor necessarily appropriate. It is not a transwoman's place to expect their neighbour to treat them as a woman.
    BetterNow and num3bers like this.
  9. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    How far are we allowed to explore and discuss this before someone ( likely someone like me Ulam or Dunnocks as opposed to the SJW agenderists who will demand the "safe space")?

    However, if you are a transwoman's neighbour or colleague, the only correct and appropriate way for you to refer to her is as a "woman", as it is not your place to lecture her on her chromosomes or question her hormone levels.

    Why? Why is it not my place to point out a fact if that is what I am doing. A man who identifies as a woman is a trans man in any context. They are not women . What we are really doing by remaining silent ( because we dont like to hurt people is that?) is buying into the silence of those who tried to pretend the Emporor had the finest suit of clothes on when all the time he was naked.

    You are suggesting a mis appropriation of language , changing its use to justify a social and cultural change you want to promote. It is the most common tool of propaganda and has been used many times by those of political ideologies who are determined to change views and force the views of those who do not agree to be punished and removed from the public arena.

    I know we are going into dangerous ground here. Language is our main source of communication. If we do not agree on meanings and definitions, we have no communication. We do not understand each other and we cannot establish facts and reason and have discussion.

    I see nothing "untruthful" in this whatsoever,

    That which is not true? I prefer to deal with facts because "Truth " ( ans since we are near Easter and although I am not religious, I would speak with Pilate and say " What is truth"..... well, for me "Truth" has to have correspondence to fact and reality or be established by reason. So it is not true to say a man is a woman because that is what they want me to say. It is a lie. It might be a socially accepted lie but it is a lie. On another level, it is accepting someones mental illness ( believing they are female when they are male) is normal and acceptable and agreeing with it.

    it is merely a polite and respectful

    It is polite....

    use of the word that makes complete sense within the sort of social interaction that you are going to have with her.

    Does it? I am going to be in a relationship ( be that work, social whatever) on the basis of accepting a lie? In my experience lies are not a good basis for a relationship of any kind. We teach our children not to lie. In school we generally ( unless it is one of the protected groups I suppose now) punish children for telling lies to us. In law there is a legal requisite for truth and in a court of law one would commit a serious crime if one told a lie ( its called perjury).

    By accepting one lie here we are on a slippery slope for sure.
    BetterNow and Vince_Ulam like this.
  10. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    A school would require a roll at least thirty times as great for this to approach even possibility, never mind likelihood.
    num3bers likes this.
  11. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    There is a bit of peer pressure in this, as in many things. In my son's school, there was a big group; most of whom have reverted to their original gender on becoming adult. I supervised a transgirl in one school of 400, when I was a mentor, they needed constant one-to-one supervision as they were considered a suicide risk. In another school there was a group of around half a dozen. In my current school none at all. So apart from that lone individual I supervised, it seems to either be many or none.
    BetterNow likes this.
  12. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Rapid-onset gender dysphoria does cluster, yes, like eating disorders and other peer-contagious self-harming behaviour, and it is coincident with increased online activity:

    Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria
    Littman L (2018) Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria. PLoS ONE 13(8): e0202330. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0202330.
    BetterNow and dunnocks like this.
  13. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    Statistically I believe that transgender identity accounts for around 0.3 - < 0.6 of the general population. I have not met any in my school or teaching career so far. I have et none in the context of my home life/neighbourhood either. So Vince Ulam is correct / factual in his statistical assessment.

    I have met two trangender persons . One was rolled up in front of me when I was at university as part of a set of discussion in the philosophical society to which I belonged at the time. The other is in a prominent position in our local village by nature of their role. I have in the 25 years between university and now, not met any others.

    There sees to me that a number of things are going on at a social/cultural level. The number of those in positions such as that in my local village is disproportionate to the number who exist in the population as a whole. Many of these have somehow engineered their way into the important social roles I feel . Maybe that is part of an agenda ( without wanting to be a conspiracy theorist) to raise their profile and thus give acceptance / getting them condoned in society generally.

    I still find it hard to buy into that lie and my feelings toward "The One" locally are of suspicion. I hope I hide it well but fortunately I have little opportunity to speak to them anyway and I keep away from any place they exercise their role. If I were to speak out of course, in the current climate, I would be prosecuted no doubt for a "Hate Crime".

    Similarly I think that a lot of children are influenced by seeing these people in media and TV etc and they mimic or decide to become part of the trend ( thats why many revert as per Dunnocks coment). Some further perhaps use it as a convenient place to hang their troubles ( other mental issues) . Some I suspect are actually using this new trend as a means to abuse systems as well ( entire men who claim to identify as women so they can get into women's prisons for example ..... it has happened.

    Statistically of those who have issues with gender identity issues less than half make a full transition anyway . Of those apparently 35% then regret it and want to change back ( and more change back having gone half way down the process too). Often the issue is tied up with other mental health issues and sexual abuse ( we are not allowed to say this though are we)?

    However, as it increases now it is having a bigger knock on effect in culture and society. As has been said already, it does undermine women and girls in their roles and in the push for equality for them. It has led to gender neutral this and that and even to men competing in women's sports on the basis of their " identity". In a couple of instances in the USA girls lost out on sports scholarships to these trans women . Was that fair or even equal? Two girls , biologically and gender identifying females lost their chance at college because of two men who claimed to be women. If this were any other arena it would be treated differently as I have already said. If I were to identify in an ethnicity I am not and I was found out , I would be called a liar or have to convince people I was mentally ill. I certainly wouldn't be affirmed or condoned that is for sure.
    BetterNow, guinnesspuss and dunnocks like this.
  14. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

    Here’s the definition of woman: Adult Human Female.
    BetterNow and dunnocks like this.
  15. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    Definition of female ( just to be sure we all understand ) -
    Female (♀) is the sex of an organism, or a part of an organism, that produces non-mobile ova (egg cells). Barring rare medical conditions, most female mammals, including female humans, have two X chromosomes.
    BetterNow, vannie and dunnocks like this.
  16. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    A woman engaging in sexual intercourse with a male child under 13 is committing statutory rape.
    A female using a strap on dil do to force sexual intercourse can also be described as committing rape.

    So we can't really say that 1 in 200 rapists are transgender and skewing the figures.
  17. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    I am not at all certain this is correct. I think that rape by legal definition is the penetration of mouth, an us or vir g ina with a pe nis without consent. Anything else is sexual assault ( including penetration with an object).

    It was certainly the case according to the 2003 legal definitions. I am not aware of any changes since then. I do know there was a petition to have that changed but I think it failed.

    Now I am not a lawyer , so if anyone who has a law degree can say differently I would be happy to accept that.
    BetterNow likes this.
  18. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Half of all transgender prisoners are sex offenders or dangerous category A inmates

    'This is the report we published in October 2017. Since that time the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) have confirmed by Freedom of Information requests that 60 of the 125 transgender prisoners known to be in prison in England and Wales are convicted sex offenders.


    Sex offending is overwhelming committed by males. There are 13,000 male sex offenders in prison compared to about 100 women. Almost 20% of male prisoners have committed sex offences. Our figures suggest that sex offending rates amongst trans prisoners is at least comparable to male rates.'

    FairPlayForWomen.com, 9th November 2017.
    BetterNow and num3bers like this.
  19. Eszett

    Eszett New commenter

    Adult human female - you start to get problems as soon as you try to define adult and female.

    Out of interest, do you all think intersex people who define as either women or men are liars too, and would you correct them on this during small talk? Let me guess, you are going to point out to me how statistically negligible they are, so there is no point in thinking about this?

    I love it how you are all saying that you actually know quite a lot of trans people, but then go on to explain how that is somehow not representative of the overall situation...

    Dunnocks, maybe trans kids are happier to be "out" in school if there are already others, whereas in those schools where they would be the only person, a trans kid would be more likely to keep it to themselves? (Funnily enough, in my experience, it is the same with gay teachers - either there are many of none... Proves nothing. Just a thought.)
    That said, please don't get me wrong - as an old-fashioned feminist, I share your worries about girls feeling that being a boy is better than being a girl. I don't think at all that the current trend towards female-to-male trans identities is a reason to celebrate... But none of that changes the fact that an individual trans boy in school deserves my respect just like anyone else, so I am going to use male pronouns and refer to that student as a boy. If they change their mind, I'm going to change my pronouns. I'm not going to gloat and say "told you so, you were deluded".
    bessiesmith and Setsugetsuka like this.
  20. Eszett

    Eszett New commenter

    Of course language is political. Including transwomen in a new definition of "women" is political and driven by a progressive agenda. Insisting that words should never ever change is equally political and driven by a conservative agenda.

    Punishing people for disagreeing or using words differently is a whole different matter. While some people will try this by intimidating others, I can't see it happening on a large scale in Britain, thankfully. None of your posts have been moderated, for example, so are your views really being "removed from the public arena"?

    Has that transwoman on your village council tried to intimidate you? Or are you avoiding her just in case? (In which case, maybe get over yourself and try actually speaking to her? Maybe don't bring up her reproductive organs in your opening line though...)

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