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Are student teachers still taught that 'Poor behaviour will be prevented by more effective lesson planning'

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by garyconyers, May 10, 2011.

  1. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Hi Elizabeth
    I know I've gone off the deep end with this, largely because that while I can cope with the backbiting that some posters on here aim at others - and quite enjoy a bit of it myself sometimes - it infuriates me when someone who claims to be experienced then takes a pop at hard working, inexperienced student teachers. I work with them every day, and know how hard the course you've just done is: to be treated with "scepticism" is just beyond the pale, I think.
    Rest assured, if jennifer had said that her training was rubbish and that she was up all night planning and still couldn't get the pupils to pay attention, and that behaviour in schools was appalling and children were neds, she would not have been questioned by leonard; her statements would have been accepted with a smug welcome, because they would have reinforced the cynical, pessimistic view of teaching people like him wish to promulgate.
    Instead, gary asked for information - and in return for naively assuming that she could getaway with describing positive experiences, is told that she must be "mistaken" about the experiences she has had, that she is "wasting her time", that the successes she has had deserve "scepticism".
    That is what is so objectionable. Leonard accuses me of stifling debate - but it is him and his ilk who stifle debate, because anyone who presents a different view of teaching, anyone who, while accepting there are problems, sees reason for optimism, anyone who believes that training and professionalism can empower teachers, anyone, godammit, who LIKES children, will be targeted. Jennifer says it herself - she was nervous about posting because of this very behaviour. The result is that anly the negative, only the cynical will ever be allowed to post with impunity on these boards, thereby skewing perceptions and propagating their agenda.
    This should be a place for the positive and the negative, to talk about successes and failures, to pose questions and suggest answers. But if it doesn't accord with the world view of that vicious few, it isn't allowed.


     
  2. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Reasonable and balanced? You're having a laugh. Not one moment's thought of how a hard working, inexperienced student might feel about being told she's"wasting her time" and being treated with "scepticism" by someone who knows nothing about her and how she's doing.

     
  3. How do you know i didnt give a moments thought. I did. I just disagree (politely) with your view that impoliteness equates to bullying. I have already been clear on this point.
     
  4. As an NQT i recently posted a thread on here about a facebook hate group. If i recall correctly, you were one of the posters so you should recall this. I seeked advice and also explained what i did to resolve the situation. Most posters (you included) were suitably supportive which i appreciated.

    JamesTES though, expressed scepticism at some of my actions and questioned their effectiveness. Needless to say he only knew what i had typed on here and had no other information to go on.

    My questions to you Raymond are.

    Did JamesTES have a right to express scepticism towards my actions?
    Did JamesTES actions also constitute bullying in your eyes?
    If they did, why did you not leap to my defence?
     
  5. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    You are joking aren't you?
    After wasting my time finding that thread, I notice it is from 5 months ago. You posted a problem, I replied on the 27th December. I suggested something, you said thanks, and, assuming my work was done, I didn't check in again the 28th March, when I congratulated you on solving the issue.
    You criticise me for not jumping to your defence in a thread I obviously wasn't reading. Could you be any more childish?
    As for James' treatment of you, on a quick reading, I think he was harsh with you. I think the objection he took to you congratulating yourself on having a facebook hate page and "cackling with glee" was over the top, as I am sure you were being flippant. I am sure James will be able to sleep at night knowing I disapprove of this.
    Now that you have had me trawl back through a thread I wasn't involved in for three months, do you now feel validated?
     
  6. Supporting student teachers in school is one thing - saying that we should treat them differently on an open forum is patronising.
    And you would have accepted such comments?
    As has already been pointed out to you Raymond I suggested the class may have not been as 'unmanageable' as she thought - even if I am right it does not mean that her placement was unsuccessful. That is your implication not mine.
    I said she was 'wasting her time' on some aspects of her planning. You are misrepresenting my opinion again.
    And we move from ad hominems to strawmen.
    Indeed Raymond - it is a shame you are opposed to all of these things.


     
  7. I seem to recall you suggesting Gary check back through your past postings.

    Childish? No more than your comment on me bending my spine.

    My point still remains. Both scenarios feature an experienced practioner displaying scepticism towards an inexperienced teacher. One invokes righteous fury in you, but the other, when you check back in march, doesnt. (I wasnt expecting you to check the thread daily, but reading it in march Should have given you an opportunity to read previous comments)

    you acknowledge that JamesTES was 'harsh' with me. Does that constitute bullying? Yes or no?
     
  8. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    I didn't read the whole thread in March - I read your final response. Jeez. Do YOU read three month's worth of posts whenever you dip back in? Yes or no? How do you find the time?
    Neither have I read the whole thread now. You want me to be righteously furious on your behalf five months later? Yes or no?
    I have said James was over the top: you seemed to deal quite competently with it yourself at the time, so you didn't feel bullied - whereas jennifer felt the need to e-mail me directly expressing nervousness about posting on here again - a feeling you dismiss. If you want me to be sympathetic towards your position, do you think you could show a little sympathy towards others? Yes or no?
    THIS is the current thread, the thread I am involved in, the thread in which I see an experienced, cynical teacher bullying an inexperienced student just becasue she expresses positive messages that don't accord with his world view. You see nothing wrong with leonard's actions, yet when it is obvious you donlt feel you were bullied, you cry for support - five months later, and in a thread I wasn't involved in? Yes or no?
    Why the sudden need to get me condemning James? Is it because you have firmly placed yourself in the cynics' camp? Are you afraid of them, and wish to curry favour with them so that you don't become the butt of their "scepticism"? Yes or no?

     
  9. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    You won't find one example in my "vast back catalogue" in which I accuse a teacher who complains about badly behaved pupils of being "mistaken", or where I have said I am "sceptical" of them being badly behaved, or of where I tell them that their perceptions of their own negative experiences deserve "scepticism".
    This is effectively a lie by implication.
     
  10. For pity sake Raymond did you even read that e mail before reposting it?
     
  11. Earlier on I said that I'd never seen naughty students behave positively to resources from the 'teachers toolkit'. You retorted that I wasn't using the resources properly - Is this not proving your scepticism about my perceptions of a negative experience?

     
  12. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Er... what I actually said was
    "It seems, from this and your earlier post about never having seen it
    work with challenging classes , that you're not using the Teacher's
    Toolkit correctly. Why don't you ask Jennifer for advice, she seems to
    be having much more success with it."
    You will see I say it seems that you're not using it correctly, and she seems to be having more success. You are often quick to point out your own use of the word seems to absolve you of any criticism: given your renowned reputation for fairness, I take it you won't mind if I do the same thing.

     
  13. "I didn't read the whole thread in March - I read your final
    response. Jeez."

    Fair enough. But its not unusual to re-read at least part of a thread before reposting.
    "Do YOU read three month's worth of posts whenever you
    dip back in? Yes or no?"

    Yes sometimes. Depends on subject/amount of posts - the Facebook Hate group thread didn't have a massive amount of posts, hence my assuming you may have re-read at least a few of them.
    "Neither have I read the whole thread now."
    Fair enough.
    You want me to be righteously furious on your behalf five months later? Yes or no? No. Thats not the point and you are well aware of this. I don't ask or expect anyone to be righteously angry on my behalf. What I asked was whether JamesTES comments could be construed as bullying given that you percieved Leonards comments to be so.
    "I have said James was over the top: you seemed to deal quite competently with it yourself at the time, so you didn't
    feel bullied"

    No I didnt feel bullied. But it wasnt me who was throwing around accusations of bullying on this thread. That was you. I was making a comparison to your reactions to similar situations. As you well know.
    Regardless of whether a teacher is in training, 4-5 years in or a 20 year veteran, any who post opinion/experiences on here can expect comments/feedback/suggestions/cynicism/doubt/sceptism etc - healthy debate is simply a part of life - we dont always agree and sometimes we might not like what is being said - but an adult can chose to ignore it or respond to it.
    Most comments are usually actually positive, but some won't be. Just like life in general. Jennifers comments were both interesting and welcome. Leonard seemed to want clarification on some points and doubted others. He didnt call her a liar. He didnt abuse her. He simply questioned her. Absolutely nothing in his behaviour could be construed as bullying yet you continue to use that word.
    "whereas jennifer felt the need to e-mail me directly
    expressing nervousness about posting on here again - a feeling you
    dismiss.
    "
    I haven't dismissed it at all. I have no wish for Jennifer (or anyone) to feel nervous about posting. For the record I liked her post. Its your reaction to her message I question and the fact you seem to think it constitutes evidence towards her being bullied. Feeling nervous about something doesnt mean you are being bullied.
    "If you want me to be sympathetic towards your position, do you
    think you could show a little sympathy towards others? Yes or no?"

    Show me where I havent been sympathetic. And I am not after your sympathy. I am suggesting (as I am sure you have worked out) that you are inconsistent in your stance. Deciding to be angry over Leonards mild comments when much worse is constantly said/implied/suggested on these forums on a regular basis to a whole range of posters.That suggests your actions towards Leonard are motivated by something else. Particularly when you lower yourself to refering to him as 'scum' etc
    THIS
    is the current thread, the thread I am involved in,

    Yes, but you are capable of reading more than one thread at a time or referring back to others.
    the thread in which
    I see an experienced, cynical teacher bullying an inexperienced student
    just becasue she expresses positive messages that don't accord with his
    world view.

    Again, your use of the word bullying is innaccurate. Leonard disgreed with her and at most can be accused of impoliteness. For a start, bullying is only bullying if is orchestrated over a certain period of time with intentions to harm/distress/harass the victim. Clearly not the case here.
    You see nothing wrong with leonard's actions,
    I agree
    yet when it
    is obvious you donlt feel you were bullied, you cry for support -
    No, as previously explained, I didnt cry for support and I dont feel I was bullied. I have been making a comparison between two scenarios.
    - five
    months later, and in a thread I wasn't involved in? Yes or no?

    No - you were involved in that thread. You posted on it.
    Why
    the sudden need to get me condemning James?

    Because he is the best example of someone who deserves your righteous anger. He regularly seeks to provoke people on here, with sceptical comments being a speciality of his. If you dont like people expressing sceptism towards other peoples views that are posted on here, start with him.
    Is it because you have
    firmly placed yourself in the cynics' camp?

    Now you seem to drifting into a fantasy land. What cynics camp would this be then? Are you suggesting that there are two factions on these boards?
    Are you afraid of them, and
    wish to curry favour with them so that you don't become the butt of
    their "scepticism"? Yes or no?

    No of course, especially as I am unclear who 'them' are and why I would be so worried about suffering 'sceptism' from them. I have no problem with people politely disagreeing with my views or expressing sceptism towards what I have expressed - especially as it IS after all, completely different to being bullied.
    You have placed yourself in the position of a defender of those new teachers who suffer sceptism from more experienced ones. Given that we disagree over referring back to past threads, instead I'll ask this:
    In future, if someone like jamesTES (although not restricted to him), adopts a sceptical stance regarding teaching/behavioural strategies that I (or another NQT/trainee) post on here, will you be leaping to my/their defence as well?
    Let me make it clear. I am not asking you to (and as far as I am aware, Jennifer didnt ask you to either) but I am curious as to whether you would, or whether your anger is restricted to just when Leonard posts something.
     
  14. Wow. Right. One for the girls in white coats, I guess, and that's not an area in which I'm more than an amateur. (I might say a fairly gifted one, mind you, but that might be construed as bragging lol.) There's a kind of curious predictive accuracy in the "mania" bit, however, don't you think? Ah well, feels a bit like intruding in private grief, best left well alone ....
    But, ignoring all the intervening weirdness, just a word of encouragement for Jennifer, Elizabeth and any other ITT/NQT folks who are grappling positively with these issues and making progress. Please don't be deterred by the worst negativity you see here, it's a few people with chips on their shoulders making a lot of noise, and they'll have a go at you as well because they can't stand anything that doesn't accord with their grim philosophy of despair. I'm glad you've blown Gary's misrepresentation out of the water. Keep building on the good advice you sound as if you're getting from tutors and mentors. And honestly, after the first few years, it's gets easier! [​IMG]
     
  15. It was perfectly clear that you seemed to be advocating Jennifer's methods. There was no other logical reason for you to call her a 'credit to the profession'.
    It doesn't seem as if I am using the resources incorrectly nor does it seem as if Jennifer is having more success with them because there is insufficient evidence with which to make that conclusion - your bias against me is clear.
    You've either broken your own rules by questioning the validity of my perceptions or you were attempting to get some kind of sick rise out of me by questioning my competence and suggesting I should go and get advice from a student teacher (this further demonstrates your contempt for Jennifer).
    Back to my second point - we could have actually found out who was having more success by having a discussion (isn't this what the forum is for Raymond?). I may be blunt and possibly even rude but this is what I was trying to start a discussion. You could have come along and joined in, you could have come along and said 'you were a bit rude there' but you chose to start slinging mud instead.
    PS You still haven't enlightened us as to why you think Jennifer will be a credit to the profession.





     
  16. Then why haven't you left well alone?
    Acknowledging that new teachers find the job difficult seems to suggest there may be a problem afflicting education James. Perhaps you could enlighten us on what this problem is?
     

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