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Are student teachers still taught that 'Poor behaviour will be prevented by more effective lesson planning'

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by garyconyers, May 10, 2011.

  1. Firstly your response condemned me and in praising Jennifer's work you gave every indication that you supported the time consuming methods described. Secondly I didn't even accuse you outright of advocating her methods I merely said it seemed like you were.
    Are you seriously going to call everyone who doesn't understand your posts lazy for not checking your vast back catalogue? If you hate people being unclear about your views then you should perhaps write more clearly. For example just in your argument with me you referred to your own posts disapproving of time consuming lesson planning yet condemned me personally for criticising...time consuming lesson planning! Do you agree that Jennifer is wasting her own time or not?
    If one has misinterpreted what you've said it does not mean one is lying - this is another ad hominem.
    Your getting angry because I said you 'seemed' to be advocating Jennifer's methods and then come out with this!
    No not everyone, you Raymond, and JamesTES and anyone else who thinks that the most likely thing to make naughty students kick off is a boring lesson or that a class who will successfully partake in activities from the 'Teachers toolkit' (a book I actually own and like) is, in the greater scheme of things, a challenging class.
    I've used the term ad hominem several because rather than attack my ideas you have chosen to maliciously attack my character. Also you do realise that, with this latest bout of sarcasm, you have surrendered any moral high ground you might have had when you first accused me of bullying.

  2. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    To use your semantic tactics, I didn't specifically "praise Jennifer's work" in part or in whole - I merely said she would be a credit to the profession; another lie by you. Do you believe she wouldn't be a credit to the profession?
    I write absolutely clearly. You choose to tell lies about what I say. If you are unsure about my views because my "back catalogue" is so "vast", then simply stop making up things I am supposed to have said on the spot.
    Another lie. I do not criticise you for criticising time consuming planning: I criticised you for having the sheer arrogance to criticise the practice of a hard working student who is obviously having success by planning lessons in a way that suits her. Now is that clear? Or are you going to spin that into another lie?
    And Jennifer, in managing a class that he was told was unmanageable, is obviously NOT wasting her time. You would seem to suggest she should just give up on this class; thankfully, she seems to be more professional than you.
    It seems, from this and your earlier post about never having seen it work with challenging classes , that you're not using the Teacher's Toolkit correctly. Why don't you ask Jennifer for advice, she seems to be having much more success with it.
    No, I am happily occupying the moral high ground. It seems that you are completely unchastened by being taken to task for bullying a student teacher who is having success. Attack your character? It seems that you don't have one.

  3. Glad to hear jennifer has had success with this class. Encouraging that well planned lessons can nullify or prevent behaviour issues. Its worth remembering though that badly behaved classes come in all different flavours so her positive experience here might fall flat with another similar class or work even more effectively with another. Just backs up the argument that good lessons planning is one solution in reducing bad behaviour, but of course not the only one and arguably not the main one.

    Raymond, as much as i admire your defending jennifers comments, it seems unneccessary. It was posted on a public forum which by its very nature, invites debate. Leonard seemed to be simply questioning or disagreeing with some points she made. I don't see how this could be construed as unreasonable.

    If you genuinely found leonards tone so objectional, How come you havent (to my knowledge) ever challenged James
    TES's posts, which regularly seem to be trying to goad or provoke other posters?

    I respect your teaching knowledge and advice. I really do. I just don't understand your apparent anger on this issue.
  4. Firstly I'm surprised you don't think calling someone a 'a credit to the profession' is praise. Secondly since you are apparantely not praising her work on what grounds are you calling her a 'credit to the profession'?
    I don't have enough information to answer that question Raymond - unlike you I did actually ask for some before jumping to conclusions.
    It's not just me who thinks you are unclear Raymond. How many liars are there on this forum?
    This is amazing - you agree with me but criticise me anyway for being arrogant!
    I suggested that the class might not be as difficult as Jennifer seems to think - how do you construe this as suggesting she 'give up on them'?
    I've used simplified variations of some of the activities reasonably well with some challenging classes but it was becoming established by punishing poor behaviour that allowed this to happen not the pedagocial quality of the activities or the amount of time spent planning the lesson.
    In what parallel universe do you get to;
    • Call me a bully for questioning and being sceptical about claims in a post
    • Call me a liar for saying that calling someone 'a credit to the profession' is praise
    • Question my professionalism
    • State that I have no character
    • Accuse me of 'nose in the air' arrogance
    • Sarcastically say that I am pulling the word 'ad hominem' out of a box
    and still occupy the moral high ground!

  5. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Campamania - I've had a couple of unsolicited messages in my inbox from Jennifer, obviously worried about the tone this thread has taken towards her. She writes
    She writes:
    "Oh my gosh, I just read the rest of the thread.

    This is why I was always a bit nervous about posting on the TES forum...

    Best wishes,

    I asked her if I could include this. She agreed, writing
    "Yes, if you want to.

    I was just caught off guard when he said, 'if you want to help kids
    then spend some time with them rather than wasting it planning tick box
    lessons'. I completely respect the opinion of experience professionals,
    however I hate to feel like I am in any way letting my pupils down. I
    also don't like to hear my lessons referred to as 'tick box lessons'. If
    this was the case, surely my colleagues or tutors would have picked up
    on this."
    Perhaps now you can "understand" my "anger". Or perhaps you still think she "invited" the reaction she got from Leonard.

  6. If her position is that unmanageable classes can be turned around solely using the methods described then I would say she is ignorant of just how unmanageable some classes can be. Jennifer could, of course, clarify the point and clear this matter up. I did ask for clarification Raymond but you seem to be offended by this and think that I should disregard my own experience and accept what is said at face value.
    Also I didn't accuse Jennifer of posting 'any old rubbish'. I asked you if I could post any old rubbish and go unchallenged on the pretence of not 'inviting debate'.
    Thank goodness for that. I bet it doesn't last.
    Shall I add insults to the list of things you can do whilst still claiming the moral high ground?
  7. I've taught lessons that have been planned in intricate detail that have been completely derailed by behaviour, and 'it's 1130 and I really need to go to bed' plannes lessons that have been really succesful.
    In general though, I have found that the lessons that have had more effort spent in planning, get better behaviour out of the students. It's not the be all and end all, but it's certainly the first step in pre-empting poor behaviour.
    More to the point, when your a students and you lack a) experience and b) a strong relationships with the students, it's the only thing you really have any control over.
  8. *you're
  9. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    *** Bully alert ***

  10. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Excellent points, GreyHam. I encourage my students to use a "mini lesson planner" we have for day to day planning, rather than the full scale one used for formal assessment. Very often, though, they say that, at the development stage they are at, they prefer the longer version, because it helps them structure what they do and keep them focused. Of course, they wean themselves of the longer version as they become more confident about what they do.

  11. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

  12. I see your giving me the silent treatment lasted less than a day.
    Having now lowered yourself to flaming are you still claiming the moral high ground?
  13. We continually have this argument because rather than defend what you are saying you resort to high levels of pendantry and cry foul.
    For example - I assumed that you approved of Jennifer's work having called her 'a credit to the profession' after reading her post. Since the post was about only about her working methods I can't see any other reason for you to make such a claim - yet you cried foul anyway and accused me of telling lies.
    Despite the high standards you demand of everyone else you freely make assumptions about other people - for example from my 'tone' you found it perfectly acceptable to assume that Jennifer is young.
    It's already been suggested at least once that you can't claim the moral high ground when you are resorting to ad hominems.
  14. I don't wish to fan the flames of this argument, but I really don't understand why people choose to be so aggressive and argumentative on these forums. I've been at the end of some quite blunt replies to questions or comments, and I've read some of the long and involved arguments that seem to appear quite frequently.
    I'm an NQT and I use these forums to ask for help (that I'm not getting in school), listen to advice, learn from reading about other people's questions and answers... not to argue with people or pull apart opinions or ideas.

  15. Raymond. I still can't understand why you think a person being critical or disagreeing with someone can be interpreted as bullying. Calling someone 'utter scum' could be construed as that though.

    In response to some of your earlier comments:

    Leonard being sceptical of her experience doesnt mean she was lying. She could for example, simply be mistaken.

    Saying someone is "wasting her time" doesn't equate to bullying, at worst its simply impolite.

    Some mentors could be incompetent. Just as some might be excellent.

    A public forum is a public forum. If you post an opinion or relate an experience, people might question or disagreeing with you. Its not the end of the world and unless a campaign of abuse or harrassment starts up, Its unlikely to constitute bullying.

    "Her reward is leonards 'scepticism'" so what. That isnt bullying someone.
  16. "Do you think she will ever reply to appeals for information ever again on this thread?" who knows? Hopefully, she is more than welcome. Most teachers are probably thick skinned enough to handle someone simply disagreeing with Them, however polite they may or may not be.
  17. "I couldn't care less if you don't "understand" that" Thats a shame. As an NQT i would hope that someone who works with new teachers, such as yourself, would care.
  18. Raymondyou also quoted a couple of messages you recieved from jennifer in your inbox. I am not clear how either of these support your claims of bullying or explain your 'anger'. once again, disagreeing with or questioning something is not bullying. Referring to something as 'tick box exercises' is at worst, dismissive. Its not abusive.
  19. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Watch you don't break your spine bending over backwards to accommodate your crony.
  20. Is that it? after my reasonable and balanced responses you come up with this? Essentially admitting defeat and resorting to insults because i carefully explained why i thought you were wrong. Politely i might add.

    And i am still waiting for you to explain why, given your apparent outrage at leonards mild comments, you have elected not to challenge someone like JamesTES, who regularly posts in a more inflammatory manner.

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