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Are student teachers still taught that 'Poor behaviour will be prevented by more effective lesson planning'

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by garyconyers, May 10, 2011.

  1. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    A shame there haven't been any student teachers or NQTs on to clarify what Raymond says - ie student teachers are told 'Poor behaviour will be prevented by more effective lesson planning'. A lot of people understand this to mean, "there will be no misbehaviour in well-planned lessons". Thanks to Raymond for clarifying what he means by this. The phrase 'Poor behaviour will be prevented by more effective lesson planning' is misunderstood by lots of teachers IME.

    I was going to ignore JamesTES's silly post because of its inaccuracues and leave it there, but I think it would help James if I pointed out where the unfair and untrue comments are there.
    What is my 'perennial topic'? I stick to posting about discipline and behaviour on 'Behaviour' because that's what this part of TES is for. Do you look at other TES forums? I have posted opinions about religion, music, morality, politics, current affairs, sport, etc on Opinion and Personal. This isn't the place for those discussions, as this forum focusses on 'behaviour' - hence me sticking to that topic on here. I have the same view because that is my opinion - aren't we all consistent on some things? I have offered advice when I felt I could, eg I gave specifics on what worked for me with regard to shouting. Have you ever offered specific advice on what would work? (Post 5 below).
    Some other thread of mine?
    Not true. If you click the link in the OP you'll see a poster called 'giraffe' started the original thread on Opinion. Either you didn't check, or you think I'm giraffe.
    From lots of student teachers and NQTs who brought this up. From lots of the posters on the Opinion thread I originally posted a link to on this thread.
    Mostly from the only other university-based teacher trainer I know of who posts on this forum. RaymondSoltysek, in the first reply to the OP said in his first sentence: "Of course student teachers are taught that effective lesson planning will prevent bad behaviour: it does." Check it out, post 2. So you disagree with Raymond then?
    I have said this too on many occasions. So nothing's wrong with that. My very next post (post 12) makes this point. I agree with this, and will continue to do so. Or are you too busy looking for ways to have a go at me to notice I said this?
    It's not my 'myth', its giraffe's. Click on the link to check. Also, most of the posters on Opinion have heard this. Raymond even agrees with it (see post 2, first sentence, as I mentioned earlier).
    What do you mean by this? Are you referring to the time I post? I started the thread 11:54; my next post(12) was 20:03; third(20) at 06:54 fourth (25) at 14:21 then this one. Okay, so you can't be referring to the time of my posts - so what do you mean by this?

    James, I really don't know what your problem is with me or my opinion(s), but I post honestly how I feel about things in secondary schools. The views I've expressed are: be fair and consistent with praise and discipline, use sanctions consistently, shouting is a bad idea as overuse makes it useless, well-planned lessons are crucial - especially for the more challenging classes, whole-class detentions should be a no-no as they are unfair, corporal punishment has no place in schools, the police should be involved when serious (scarring or life-changing) assaults take place.....
    If you disagree with any of the above why not say so, with reasons, instead of just having a non-constructive go based on inaccuracy?

    Apologies for taking this thread off topic. Its interesting that the two teacher trainers have contradictory experiences of this question.
  2. I'm an NQT. I don't recall specifically being told that poor behaviour will be prevented by more effective lesson planning at uni during my GTP year, but I have been told that teachers need to plan for good behaviour as part of my NQT mentoring.
    I do have some very inappropriate and challenging behaviour in my class and I'm now more able to "plan for good behaviour" as I know what some of the trigger points are for certain individuals and groups, and I now think about avoiding them as a more natural part of the planning process.
    However, I've also been told during my NQT year that "planning for good behaviour" involves avoiding more interactive activities that some challenging pupils find difficult to cope with - even activities as harmless as hot-seating and role play. It leads for a pretty dull classroom, sometimes, and those with the challenging behaviour still push the boundaries and impact on everyone else's learning.
    What I do think, however, is that my uni training in terms of behaviour management was woefully inadequate. It's taken me nearly a year to understand that challenging behaviour in my class is not my fault. It's a whole school issue that is not being dealt with. Some children know that they can get away with murder, and then be rewarded for it with extra responsibilities and leeway. I know it, the pupils in question know it, the pupils who choose to behave appropriately know it, and nothing is solved.

  3. katnoodle

    katnoodle New commenter

    I've been told at university that around 70% of behaviour problems can be avoided by having a properly planned lesson, and then we've explored the 30% out of our control, e.g. low expectations across the school, issues from home brought into the classroom, some SEN, etc.
    Reading some posts on this forum I feel fortunate that in both my training schools the general line is that good lessons will motivate pupils more, but there will always be some who have got their own issues and firm behaviour management will help with this - or at least prevent them disrupting others.
    It's an ethos I'm happy with - but then I've not taught in particularly challenging schools ...
  4. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    That makes a lot of sense, Elizabeth.
    And it's very sad to hear you being told such nonsense, especially when you can see for yourself that when you avoid interactive lessons - and they still play up.
    I would agree that there isn't enough behaviour management at university: however the PGDE (PGCE in England) is a hugely compressed year with a massive amount of learning to be packed into - what - 20 weeks? Our students complain too that there's too much "fancy" stuff and not enough bread and butter behaviour management or special needs, etc., and I see their point, However, uni courses MUST deliver ALL the content which covers the criteria for entry into the profession, and a course which didn't spend time on that "fancy stuff" would not be accredited. Bear in mind that more than half of your time on the PGCE in England (half in Scotland) is spent in schools; there's therefore a justifiable complaint that the behaviour management training you get in schools during your PGCE is even more woefully inadequate.
    In Scotland, the Donaldson Report is suggesting some sort of two year training structure involving the unis - perhaps that's the way forward to adequately deliver everything that needs to be delivered.
    Thanks for your thoughts.

  5. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Sounds sensible to me, kat.
    Just the point I make in post 2.
    Refreshing to hear some switched on students and NQTs who have studied recently and who are able to understand the issue without grinding an axe. Thanks.

  6. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    And there they are, gary...

  7. As a trainee teacher I have received training in valuable behaviour management strategies but the importance of effective planning has also been stressed. Planning effectively allows me to gain extra awareness of my expectations for the lesson and allows me to prepare engaging active activities. I have had a colleague inform me, ?good luck with this class, you will never be able to get them to behave well?. However, I planned lessons that were particularly active (with the help of the Teacher?s Toolkit by Paul Ginnis!) and they were successful and extremely enjoyable. I continually asked pupils for their feedback on post-it notes at the end of the lesson and then incorporated these ideas into future lessons. To this day (touch wood), we have only had to deal with occasional low level disruption. I don?t believe that this would be the case had I not have put a great deal of effort into planning. Also, I feel that planning of a high standard is necessary if I am to provide the differentiation that my pupils deserve. This also allows my pupils to feel supported and positively engage in the lesson.
    On that note, I better go plan.
    Best wishes,
  8. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Sounds as if you'll be a credit to the profession, Jennifer. Thanks for your input.
  9. Calm down,Gary. I can see you're not familiar with the plot of Groundhog Day, I suggest you look it up and you'll get the point of 6:00am. It's on the telly every other week more or less, and available on DVD for a few quid, so even better, sit back and watch it as soon as you can, it's a good laugh and quite thought-provoking too, and it'll make a nice change from sitting in here. Remember, Gary, you may be paranoid, but they're not always out to get you! (One thing I would advise you, if you were still a teacher, would be to get yourself a sense of humour PDQ. Even try, like me, to laugh at yourself now and again, it could do you the world of good.)
    As for the nigh-on interminable rest of your stuff, I won't claim to have studied it in detail, but are you having a wee bit of a problem with comprehension again? I hold no brief for Raymond, but as I read it he's saying to you pretty much the same as me, i.e. well-chosen and well-planned lessons will help a great deal to engage students and reduce behaviour problems, but you need a range of other strategies as well to cope with the rest. So I'd come back to my original question: when, where and by whom has it been said by people in positions of responsibility that "effective planning will ... prevent [poor behaviour] happening at all", which is your claim? It's certainly not borne out by the young teachers posting above.
    Talking of silliness, however, the silly (and offensive) thing on this thread, as I see it, was said by Mr Leonard to Raymond in post 10.
    And finally, as for how to be good at all this, my advice would be, in order of importance, have 'presence' in your classroom (I know, I know, a bit hard to know how to acquire this, but in my reasonably well-informed observation it's the biggest single factor of them all), genuinely want the best possible outcome for all your students (not just the compliant personable ones that you like) and find ways of communicating this to them, build strong positive relationships with them based on mutual respect (not some sort of disdainful "I'm the adult here, you're the stroppy kids and you'll bloddy well do as I say or else", the day for that has long gone but some teachers, even younger ones, still seem to want to cling on to it), and only after all that, but still very helpful as well, learn a set of 'behaviour management techniques' that seek to de-escalate and are based on emotional literacy rather than to provoke confrontation and foster a perception of unfairness. There, easy, eh?
  10. Well it's all subjective but if you think that the biggest trigger for poor behaviour is teachers who fail to meet students high pedagodigal expectations then I'm not convinced that you've been to any tough schools at all.
    In tough schools nothing is more likely to make naughty children kick off than a teacher who expects them to learn i.e. a teacher who plans proper lessons.
  11. I'm merely pointing out the existence of schools where the biggest cause of poor behaviour isn't the quality of a teachers lesson plan. Why is this silly and offensive?
  12. You need to flesh this statement out because you are not really saying anything here i.e. What behaviour management strategies have you been taught?
    I like the 'teachers toolkit' but I've never seen the activities work with badly behaved classes. I'm tempted to think that this class were not particularly challenging in the first place.
    This will not be practical when you are teaching 20 plus hours a week. I'd have concerns about you burning out if you tried to keep it up. It is possible to plan effectively with minimal effort - although this does get easier as you gain experience. If you want to help kids then spend some time with them rather than wasting it planning tick box lessons.
  13. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Why does she need to flesh this out? This thread isn't about the particular behaviour management strategies taught to students. This is a favourite tactic of your - to ask for ever more clarification, thereby casting doubt on the poster's opinion, but it's entirely inappropriate here.
    What gives you the right to say that he experienced teacher who warned her about this class was wrong? Go you know the class better? What gives you the right to mock student teacher's successes with this sort of mean-spirited comment?
    Who are you to say that she isn't "spending time" with pupils? Who are you to say that she is "wasting her time" when she is obviously having a great deal of success in building relationships with her classes?
    Others can cope with your bullying, Mr Leonard, but I think you have really scraped the bottom of the barrel here. A good student, enjoying what she's doing, having success, feeling in control, no doubt getting positive feedback from the experienced colleagues she works with who actually know her - and you come on here and cynically batter her down.
    Shame on you. I have a mind to report you for abuse.

  14. She is saying that she learnt something valuable on a discussion forum and I'm asking for detail - why is this inappropriate?
    I implied that I'm sceptical based on my experience - that is all. You are misrepresenting my views Raymond which is surprising given your attitude towards Gary earlier on.
    I said she should spend time with pupils instead of engaging in the absurdly detailed lesson planning which you seem to be advocating. This is different to saying she spends 'no time with pupils'. You have misrepresented my views again and conveniently forgotten my concerns about her burning out if she carries on planning like this with a full teaching timetable.
    The only thing I am trying to 'batter' is the argument that teachers should spend copius amounts of time planning in order to build relationships with their students or deliver good lessons. Your attempts to stifle robust and frank discussion by resorting to ad hominems is causing thread after thread to descend into petty argument.
    Fine but there is a difference between my opposition to writing lesson plans and being abusive by, for example, calling someone names such as 'slimy' or 'idiot'.

  15. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Excuse me? In post 6, I clearly state
    "I don't think that "working themselves into the ground", trying to plan the "perfect lesson" or "uber planning" are
    examples of "good planning", since they reduce creativity and
    flexibility, exhaust the student and set them up for failure because of
    expectations which are too high."

    So you accuse me of advocating "absurdly detailed lesson planning" and then YOU accuse ME of misrepresenting you? Is such mendacity how you define "robust debate"?
    No, this is clearly bullying of a young student. So you are "sceptical" of the nature of the class that she has had success with. You are "sceptical" that she is telling the truth. You are "sceptical" of the professional jusdgement of this experienced teachers she is working with. Why? Because YOU think your experience is greater than hers, or her teacher mentors, or anyone else on this board.Just as you doubt that I have ever visisted a "ough" school, just because I don't share your views. Which if us is stifling debate?
    And as for gary, I wonder if he will condemn your attitude towards this young teacher's experiences as vociferously as he condemned James' suspicion of jenqt's experiences.

  16. jubilee

    jubilee Star commenter

    I'm sure we've all had the experience of fabled, challenging classes behaving for us on the first few occasions when we taught them. I certainly have. It occurs when the classes know that you'll be around for a week or more but not indefinitely.
    They lull you into a false sense of security by curbing their worst excesses early on in your 'relationship'.
    It doesn't usually take much for them to then show their true colours. Implementing the school's behaviour code is a common trigger (confiscating their phones, issuing sanctions and DTs, making it clear that you expect them to do some work). As the student teacher or temporary teacher you apparently 'have no right to tell us what to do./Miss X lets us ..../ why should I do that work if there's no prize/sweets etc for winning/ finishing first etc? Miss X always gives us treats. You're tight!"
  17. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Your experience seems to be at variance with the three NQT/students who posted earlier.

  18. Jennifer is incorporating things like the opinions of circa 20 students via post it note into her lesson planning. You gave no indication that you really disapprove of such time consuming activities in your reply to me - I can't remember what you said in 'post six' and nor should it matter as I said you 'seemed' to be advocating a particluar approach not that you are.
    Other posters have commented on your lack of clarity, I'm not even sure after months of arguing whether you actually agree with detentions or not, so I'm not about to start trawling through your prior entries to avoid offending the easily offended.
    Young? I don't recall Jennifer saying she was young. You either know this person or you are trying intensify of your ad hominem with emotionally provocative language.
    Yes I'm sceptical and if I am accusing anyone of anything it is ignorance, ignorance of the scale of the behavioural problems faced by many teachers today. Contrary to what you might think I'm not close minded but I'm not about to believe that the poorly described behaviour management and teaching strategies will solve problems. If you believe in what you are saying and you think I'm wrong then debate with me instead of resorting to ad hominens and petty accusations.

  19. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Or you were too lazy to check and simply made up an imaginary criticism of me.
    The only posters who are unclear about what I say are those who - like you - don't read what I say properly and then tell lies about it. So - read what I say and stop lying.
    It's the nose-in-air contempt which characterises your tone that prompted e to assume she was young, and that you were treating her as if she were such.
    So your belief that everyone is but you is ignorant of the behavioural problems gives you the right to bully and mock student teachers who come on this board to share their experiences, having been invited to do so by gary?
    And that's three time in two posts you've used "ad hominem" - is it your latest purchase from the Word of the Month Club?

  20. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    If you want a debate, you need to clarify "poorly described behaviour management and teaching strategies."


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