1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hi Guest, welcome to the TES Community!

    Connect with like-minded education professionals and have your say on the issues that matter to you.

    Don't forget to look at the how to guide.

    Dismiss Notice

... and yet another attempt to paint teaching in London as fabulous ....

Discussion in 'Education news' started by binaryhex, May 21, 2018.

  1. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    It is not just the salary that older, more experienced teachers command (although, with the demise of pay portability, this should no longer be a problem) that deters schools from employing them. Working through agencies, whether for day-to-day, or longer term roles, teachers are paid a flat rate, no matter how experienced they might be, so you would think that schools would take advantage of this, and go for 'more bang for the buck'. As we know, of course, they do not do this.
    install likes this.
  2. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    Haringey is an Inner London borough and all Inner London boroughs have even MORE competition for jobs and what is great about Haringey is that it has very few academies, which makes it really attractive.
  3. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    yes they were science teaching jobs, that is what I searched, that is what I got.

    This is a completely pointless argument, I did the search, I got the list of adverts, all of which are science teaching/lecturing. It was NOT a general search of everything, which would have been well into the very high hundreds.

    Like I said, you and I are clearly living in totally different Londons.

    Every post you add specifies smaller and smaller limits of what you are prepared to accept, now you want a certain salary range, as well as part time and local....

    seriously, maybe just try being more flexible
  4. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    That makes me feel a little better;)

    @dunnocks. Whether or not teaching vacancies exist, are older, more experienced teachers being considered for them? Do you know whether your SMT receives applications for the jobs they are advertising, or do they mean they get no applications from teachers they would consider suitable?
  5. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    @dunnocks :Logically, to reconcile a desperate shortage of teachers with hundreds of thousands of teachers, both experienced and new entrants, who cannot find jobs, there must be some discriminatory mechanism at work.
  6. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    They were general searches. If you are prepared to do the searches I suggested i.e. one for Science only and one for Maths only, you will yield different results but you refuse to, because you know it will prove me right.

    Whether I was looking or PT or FT work, or prepared to work all over London, there is still TOO FEW vacancies and TOO MANY teachers. Don't blame me, blame the system that creates too many teachers EVERY YEAR. There are 335,000 QTs not in schools. If we say that just under one third of them wanted to return to teaching, there still isn't 100,000 MPS/UPS jobs available for them.

    This impacts EVERY teacher because every teacher's job is easily replaceable.

    The problem is:


    This problem is impacting ALL teachers, younger and older, with the older teachers having a harder time, because there are still thousands of younger teachers unable to complete their NQTs.

    Let's hope the DoE bringing over 600 MORE overseas teachers for Maths, Science and MFL this year will help reduce the 335,000 surplus teachers we already have.:confused:
  7. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    @Jolly_Roger15 Remember, I did a lot of CPD with the Maths Hubs in many different regions and therefore I have met loads out of work and in work Maths teachers across London. There are quite a number of younger teachers finding it difficult also. Age is just another barrier, because schools are spoilt for choice, they, like all industries will always go for the younger ones. Luckily, industry is opening up doors to younger applicants due to Brexit and we will see a decrease in the number of younger graduates considering teaching. Whether it will create a big increase in jobs to help us, remains to be seen. After the schools number one preference, which is for teachers under 30s, its then the 40-50s age group and after than it gets to the over 50s.

    There are simply to many applicants ahead of us.

    The DWP is encouraging more older people to retrain and teaching is proving very popular amongst unemployed professional/graduates over 50 because it only takes one year, so it there will always, it seems, be LOADS and LOADS of older teachers for schools not to consider, much to the annoyance of many in school management.:D
  8. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    If this post-Brexit comparative shortage materialises, by the time it reaches fifty year olds, many of us will be in our Seventies, or too infirm, or too dead, to teach. Many overseas teachers come from outside the UK, anyway.
  9. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    Perhaps that's the plan:oops:
  10. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    It would certainly help to negate 'supply and demand' increasing wages, and improving working conditions.

    From personal experience, we know that the shortage of teachers is a myth. From her experience, my wife knows that the shortage of nurses and NHS professionals is a myth. How many other myths are there?
  11. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    At the risk of being censured for projecting from the particular to the general, the experience of someone I knew, I think, is illuminating. We got talking when she was working for one of those companies the send people around to schools hawking textbooks. Like me, she came from West London, and was an alumna of UCL, and did her PGCE a couple of years before me (mid-Seventies). Being a biologist (considered 'ten a penny' in teaching, at the time), she could only find a succession of temporary jobs (this was the time of drastically falling rolls, and school amalgamations). This went on for a few years, when she saw an advert for shortened courses in nursing for graduates, as there was supposedly a shortage of trained nurses. She applied, was accepted, and a couple of years later, emerged with a brand new SRN certificate, expecting to be snapped up by desperately understaffed hospitals. She said how she bitterly disappointed she was to find that she could only get an intermittent series of temporary jobs. She said she was in a worse situation than before, at least in teaching one temporary contract usually followed another. A soon as she got one few months contract, she was looking for the next. She got into publishing through a fill-in job.. She had been trained at public expense for two professions, neither of which needed her.
    MarieAnn18 and drek like this.
  12. nervousned

    nervousned Senior commenter

    Don't all overseas teachers come from outside the UK?
  13. Jolly_Roger15

    Jolly_Roger15 Star commenter

    Sorry. I meant to type 'EU'.
  14. nervousned

    nervousned Senior commenter

    Is that really the case? Most of the overseas teachers I worked with were Spanish (and Spanish teachers). Really only talking about a couple though. Are there more overseas teachers in London?
  15. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    Overseas usually mean Commonwealth. Yep, they getting them in from the Commonwealth, so we have competion from the EU and the Commonwealth for teaching jobs, I met loads of African, Indian, Australian, South African, New Zealand, Canadian, Pakistani, and Caribbean Maths teachers who were all awesome. They are shipped over and then they do Intensives over the summer and then they are let loose in the UK classroom.

    They get relocation fees of up to £5,000, where they have 2 months rent free accommodation and have to pay the whole lot back if they leave before the end of the summer term. After that a lot of the scarper back to sanity. Apparently it looks good on their CVs to say they taught in a UK school for 1 year. They are popular with schools because they are TIED to the school for a whole academic year, and £5,000 is NOTHING compared to agency fees.

    They are really good teachers, all of them I met where Maths graduates, which a lot of UK Maths teachers aren't so their subject specific knowledge was impeccable, and over the summer months they had loads of intensives on the UK curriculum, assessment etc.

    Anyone coming from the Commonwealth has to have a high standard to get work visas in the UK.
  16. nervousned

    nervousned Senior commenter

    Nothing like that round here.
  17. drek

    drek Star commenter

    The gods of data care not for real life experiences or what is actually happening in public institutions.
    The people working at collating, analysing and plotting where to put the funding (whose pockets)....they get paid for data data more data and yes data that analyses all the previous sets of data to provide evidence that data series 1 was correct after all.
    The data does not need real students and real teachers......just numbers provided by data officers at various establishments.
  18. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    I really have no idea what you are on about.

    I don't understand why you are saying this was a "general search". Ths was a search for science, and yielded over 50 adverts for science teachers within 5 miles of my school. ( many of which were dvertising more than one vacancy)

    I think you are searching totally wrong, and limiting yourself hugely on jobs you will accept.

    I don't know what to say, I have listened to you, I have done the search, I have proved you wrong, you are saying I haven't done the search because it would prove you right, I have done the search and it proved you wrong, you are calling it a "general search" I am calling it a "science search" - as I have done every time I have ever wanted a science teaching job....

    There is no where to go from here in this discussion. We are looking at identical things and seeing the total opposite.
  19. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

    @dunnocks Again, if you PUT SOMETHING in the Job title and Keyword section, you will get a different response. Keep on trying to spin the yarn that there are billions of classroom teaching jobs out there that over 50s don't want to find. I sure you will find a few people to believe you.:rolleyes:

    One thing I gained from doing all those searches for Maths and Science jobs, is HOW LITTLE work there was. Yes I knew it was bad, but not that bad. Around 15 Maths and Science jobs per LEA borough, around 8-10 Maths, and the rest Science and sometimes the Science jobs are just Physics, or Chemistry specialists which cuts down the posts that some Science teachers can apply for. And with 335,000 QTs out of the classroom, and 100,000 NQTs still to start induction, and 600 overseas teachers coming over this year on top of the 500 who came over last year, plus the NQTs graduating this June and all the UTs the schools are using as CSs, TAs, LSAs etc.


    Thankfully, there is now a tutoring market that is growing exponentially and becoming profitable, provided you are prepared to do the marketing and diversify. Teaching in the classroom, especially part time will probably yield less income than going that route PLUS as a tutor you have EVEN MORE holidays and less stress. I have lost a whopping 4 stones since I left the classroom.

    Classroom teaching made me fat. :oops:

    I am also contemplating the teaching English online market which another over 50 teacher recommended on this site a few months ago and am going to search for an online course that teaches you how to teach online to support that.

    We over 50s desperately have to start looking at the alternatives. We can't continue to beat ourselves up about the fact that we can no longer get back into schools, unless we are willing to commit to working for nothing and proving ourselves again and again. At our age, this simply is not an option.

    It is definitely worth travelling an hour to a tutoring gig that is paying £Xs an hour and which will equate to a full days supply work, in much less hours than travelling that far to a classroom teaching post, that pays you less than one on your doorstep.

    But you have to work through tutoring agencies.:eek:

    I am glad I have been unsuccessful in securing a part time classroom teaching role, it has been a great blessing because as one door closes, another one opens. And the classroom teaching door has been slammed shut for years.:(

    All one has to do is secure a sustainable means of earning a profitable living until retirement and stop wasting one's valuable time searching and applying for the elusive school that will employ you for money.

    Thank God there are alternatives to classroom teaching and thank God I have the ability to teach all Ebacc subjects to GCSE, baring Science.

    In the words of the Great Gloria Gaynor, 'I Will Survive!':p
  20. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    from another thread....

Share This Page