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All the evidence that you need that Ofsted just don't get it

Discussion in 'Education news' started by PeterQuint, Sep 10, 2017.

  1. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    As I so frequently mention to the schools I work with, it's the school's own policy that teachers have to adhere to. If you don't want peer marking all completed in the some colour, don't write in your policy that you do!
    Startedin82 likes this.
  2. Startedin82

    Startedin82 Established commenter

    I'd be very surprised if a school went into a category because some students weren't underlining the title.
    Pomz likes this.
  3. Startedin82

    Startedin82 Established commenter

    This is excellent advice - Ofsted do not prescribe a marking style or policy.
    Pomz likes this.
  4. Mrsmumbles

    Mrsmumbles Star commenter

    Who's going to do the scamming?! " MandYYY!!!"
  5. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    I wouldn't.
  6. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    No, GCSE results tell you about progress, if you look at KS2 results.

    Have you heard about PROGRESS 8 ? There's a clue in the name.
    blueskydreaming likes this.
  7. Oldfashioned

    Oldfashioned Occasional commenter

    Ofsted is corrupt. Criticism of marking etc only happens when the results aren't seen as good enough. If the results are right, in their eyes, then you can mark in a crayon once a year and they won't care or comment. All the criticisms are just fictitious nonsense to justify giving a requires improvement or inadequate.

    I've been in 3 schools with almost the exact same requires improvement judgement in the past few years. None of them really do. It is simply down to the measures of achievement they were put in this category. Now staff face long hours doing extra marking, becoming tired and unmotivated. How does that help the kids?
  8. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Established commenter

    I find I'm in agreement with @Pomz here. I can't see a contradiction. Looking at the books can help give an indication of what progress is being made. They're only in schools a short time, so just looking at a few lessons over a day or two by itself isn't going to give a complete picture of what is happening the rest of the time.

    Looking at what's in the books over a period of time could flag up somethings to examine more closely. If for example you can see in the books that they've done a number of lessons about learning to use full stops (from the LO) yet all the examples of work before this the children are using full stops, that would flag that perhaps progression was being limited. Similarly if there was a series of lesson with an increasing progression of skills but none of the children in the example demonstrate they understand the first skill before being made to move onto the next, then that would be another indication things were not right. (I can imagine both these things potentially happening with scripted lessons!).

    Okay I need to sit down now, having found myself defending OFSTED!
    Pomz likes this.
  9. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    You are correct that currently secondaries are using Progress 8 to measure progress across the school.

    This measure is something different to just looking a GCSE results as you suggested.

    However, many secondary colleagues will tell you (for various reasons) that the data they recieve from KS2 does not match their own assessments. Looking at books over a period of time is the best provides the best indication of pupils abilty and progress...
  10. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    The very best indication of progress and attainment is by asking the teacher and a spot of summative assessment.

    They could just do that???

    (Except teachers are not to be trusted. But you might trust them a bit better if you allowed them to be honest about having a class from hell or 3 individuals from hell or that the 2 weeks off when the school got flooded had an impact etc etc. And stopped asking them to be "heroes" and all that other rubbish. And accepted that expectations have been inflated by a fear of not appearing to be sufficiently 'aspirational'. Also the human tendency of human teachers to be positive about their kids and somewhat exaggerate the degree of their improvement.)
  11. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    Welcome to pedant's corner, everyone.

    Pomz, you knew exactly what I meant, so why post something as idiotic as that? Seriously, as I'm the one who brought up Progress 8, you think when I said 'GCSE results' I was talking about raw results?

    It's that sort of pedantry, which requires every single point to be laboured, and makes the internet an unpleasant place.

    It also wastes time and detracts from the discussion.

    WOAH! Where did I defend league tables and KS2 data?

    You've completely missed the point.

    We all know how inaccurate GCSE data can be, but looking at books tells you absolutely nothing which detracts from that.

    Example 1. GCSE results aren't reliable at indicating standards in a school because rich parents pay for tutors.

    Okay, I agree. What makes you think tutoring will improve GCSE results but not book work? That's nonsense on stilts. Does anyone think the tutor says "Here's something that'll improve your marks in exams, but don't use it in classwork".

    Example 2 - Inflated KS2 grades. There's sharp practice in some primaries, so pupils can't possibly meet targets at the end of KS4.

    So, because there was cheating in the SATS at the end of KS2, pupils GCSE grades won't be as good as expected. But in a reverse of the above, do you somehow think the positive effects of that cheating will stick around long enough into KS3 to make exercise books look good, but just fade before GCSEs? If not, then using unreliable KS2 data as an excuse to look at books is ridiculous, because it will tell you nothing different at all.

    Seriously, can we all do each other a favour and actually think about points before making them, and edit out the really daft ones. Just to save time.

    So here's an idea.

    As we all agree KS2 data isn't reliable, how about sacking Ofsted inspectors, and use a bit of the cash saved to pay for independent invigilators in all KS2 SATs, so we know they've taken place under proper exam conditions.

    That'd be a start.
  12. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    No, sorry, that doesn't work at all.

    If you look at GCSE grades you look at data from every exam taken by every student, usually (hopefully) over a number of years.

    If you look at books you look at the work of a handful of pupils from a short period of time; it's always going to be less than a year, and if inspectors come before Christmas, from less than a term.

    And let's stop and think for a moment. Let's check out all the possible scenarios.

    One possibility is that Ofsted go in to a school where progress 8 has been poor for 3 years. They collect in books for 20 pupils from the last 15 weeks and they look great.

    Does anyone believe the books will persuade Ofsted to give that school a glowing report?

    And I'd consider that to be damning of Ofsted if they did.

    Conversely, you get a school with excellent results over several years. You collect in the books and you don't like what you see.

    Bad report? If the answer is no, the book inspection is useless.

    If the answer is yes, that's all the more reason to point out how worthless Ofsted are.

    The only other possibility is the books telling the same sort as the data. Which again makes Ofsted pointless.
    ridleyrumpus likes this.
  13. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    Yes. That is what I thought.

    i thought this as this is what you said:

  14. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    As opposed to calling complete strangers, who happen to see things differently to you, stupid or idiotic? That's what makes the internet a nice place I suppose.

    Anyway, you haven't yet mentioned how long ago your last direct experience of an Ofsted inspection was. (As you have such clear and indisputable opinions, I assume it was very recent and you're right up-to-date with such things?)
  15. Grandsire

    Grandsire Senior commenter

    Sorry, PeterQuint, you're wrong - and I resent the statement that there is cheating in the SATs. In fact, I always erred on the side of caution when it came to judging writing attainment. No one was every really certain about the difference between a 4c and a 4b, and we must have wasted hours discussing it with each other, instead of talking to the children about what to do.

    But you can't argue with a test paper. My students did three maths papers under strict exam conditions every year, with over half the year group (my top set) getting Level 5. I never cheated once, nor did they - they didn't need to. But the local secondary would then put them all into mixed-ability classes, and give them the weakest teachers who taught them all from one textbook at Level 4 - no differentiation, no challenge. For nearly two decades, my students and their parents came back to me, complaining the work in Year 7 and 8 was way, way too easy after the work they'd done with me. It wasn't until Year 9 or even 10 that they were given work to do at their level, by which time some of them had been switched off, and said that maths was dull now.

    So I could very well say "Secondary teachers have no idea what we accomplish in Primary, even without cheating" but I won't. Maybe you should get yourself into your local primary and find out what we do, rather than making it up.

    And breathe.... it's been a long day.
    Jesmond12, chelsea2 and Pomz like this.
  16. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    Did I imply there is cheating in KS2 SATs?

    I'll have to be clearer.

    There is absolutely, definitely cheating in KS2 SATs.

    I teach students who, based on their KS2 results, are expected Grade 6 at GCSE, and who can't string a sentence together.

    They are miles behind classmates from different feeder schools with similar SATs results, and have been since day 1 in Year 7.

    And when we ask other pupils from the same feeder school, they say that their hand went up regularly during SATs and the teacher spent a lot of time with them, chatting and pointing at the paper.

    You keep referring to yourself. You seem to think I said that every teacher cheated with every one of their pupils.

    I didn't.

    But to repeat, there is definitely cheating in the SATs at the end of KS2.
  17. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    I'm hesitant to use such terms, but when you make posts like that...

    You're clearly an Ofsted stooge.

    Let me be clear, Ofsted (at least in their current form) are a force for evil.

    The destroy lives.

    They've caused suicides.

    They've cause mental health issues among staff.

    They've caused good staff to lose their jobs.

    They've caused good staff to leave the profession.

    They've enabled third rate staff who can't teach but who know how to play the game to reach SLT.

    They've subsequently damaged the education of countless young people, whilst diminishing much if what should be fantastic about their young lives.

    And we have all of the above evidenced by story after story at TES news, and post after post here in the forums.

    To support such an institution is worse than stupid or idiotic, it's evil.

    And no, that's not 'just an opinion'. It's what is reported here at TES - a reputable, independent education news site - on a weekly basis.
  18. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    This has been recognised as a problem nationally for quite a while. Hence the commissioning of https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/key-stage-3-the-wasted-years

    Inspectors reported concerns about Key Stage 3 in one in five of the routine inspections analysed, particularly in relation to the slow progress made in English and mathematics and the lack of challenge for the most able pupils. Etc. Etc.
  19. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    You're not really, are you?

    Yes. I'm paid by Ofsted to talk to you. They are actually that concerned about your reasoned opinions and well-informed views. Didn't you know?
    Rott Weiler and Grandsire like this.
  20. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    Actually (and I'm not really supposed to tell you this, so mums the word), they're thinking of asking you to write the mission statement on their new website. (And maybe do a couple of short PR videos?) ;)

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