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Discussion in 'Personal' started by JL48, Nov 1, 2018.
The term was used by the mainstream media and was not a term introduced and used by your claim of "snowflakes".
We are not discussing anything regarding the veracity of the term or its appropriateness. Whether I "swallowed it" or not is secondary to the fact that it was used by the mainstream media and that it was not a term used by, as you call them, "snowflakes".
Just accept that, acknowledge it and move on.
oh, florian gassman: you said "Leave voters are as capable as anyone else of spotting b*llocks" ……. are you suggesting that not one person voted Leave in the hope of seeing the NHS benefiting to the tune of £350,000,000 per week as proposed by the Leave campaign's advert that was broadcast to the nation repeatedly in the run-up to the Referendum?
I can’t answer for @florian gassmann, but I’d guess there were plenty of leave voters that voted recognising that the figure was an exaggeration ( Remainers read that as ‘lie’). To assume that all Leavers voted that way because of a wish to get back ‘350,000,000’ is like saying all Leavers voted that way because they are racists.
No one is saying all. Given the result was so close, it didn't even need a majority, or even a large minority of Leave voters.
After years of ...
"We pledge no rise in tuition fees"
"We promise to restrict immigration to the tens of thousands",
"We will reform the House of Lords, reduce its size and ensure its members are elected"
"We commit to replacing all housing sold under the right to buy"
... voters know what political slogans are.
Voters were also very aware that two backbench MPs from opposite parties (Giselda and Boris) promoting the words on the bus were in no position to promise the spending plans of some future government.
Of course. Nobody is going to buy newspapers with headlines such as "Tariffs unlikely to make more difference to prices than normal currency fluctuations". To sell your wares you need headlines like "UK about to plunge over a cliff edge" or "Catastrophe looming on 30th March".
It doesn't mean you have to believe the headlines. Use a bit of commonsense. A no deal is very unlikely (almost impossible if you believe the headlines in some of today's newspapers). If it did occur, the average EU tariff is around 5.2%, People might choose to buy Somerset brie instead of French brie, or Californian Pinot Grigio instead of Italian, to avoid the extra pennies. Others might not. It is not something to get over-excited about.
"Cliff edge" and "catastrophe" are examples of exaggerated language that do not reflect the nature of this unlikely scenario. Just accept that, acknowledge it and move on.
The implication was there when you wrote “are you suggesting that not one person voted Leave in the hope of seeing the NHS benefiting to the tune of £350,000,000 per week” - “not one person”.
They''ll also know that 'we will implement what you decide' was just another political slogan.
But one that proved to be true, unlike any of those that I listed.
Don't think it was me. Think that you're confusing me with @Incommunicado - but to address your point:
Exactly. I read it as quite the opposite. Only 3.6% of Leave voters would have needed to switch their allegiance for Remain to have won. That's a very small number. It's quite believable that more than that number were affected by the lie on the bus. Therefore it's an entirely believable proposition to claim "it woz the bus wot won it".
It was the pathetic and complacent Remain campaign wot lost it
That is possible, of course, but I doubt the actual figure was what could have convinced any voter. The UK does not send £350m a week to Brussels - the rebate is deducted before the money is sent, which takes the contribution down to £276m a week. Would you have been happier if that figure had been plastered on the side of the bus?
It is equally possible that an equal number were persuaded to vote to Remain by Cameron's implication that a third World War could be on the horizon following a 'Leave' vote; by Osborne's, warning of an immediate emergency budget; by Soubry's claim that a recession would occur simply by a vote to Leave or even by Tusk's claim that western political civilisation would be destroyed if the UK voted 'Leave'.
According to the Ashcroft poll of 12,369 voters on the day of the referesdnum MORE THAN HALF (57%+) said they had made up their mind on how to vote in the referendum long before the bus appeared.
What lie? A suggestion of how a future government might spend the money is not a lie. Some might have thought it a good idea. It might still be.
However, whatever the case, two backbench MPs from different parties (Giselda and Boris) could hardly determine the spending plans of some unknown future government . Or did you think they could?
FG knows full well that around 1 in 8 leave voters, i.e. around 2 million of them cited the NHS as their main reason for voting leave, or at least he should do. Until someone actually studied it- he used to post links to the data that showed this, now he just cherry picks other bits from it that suite his agenda.
His pretence that the £350m had no influence on the vote is at best disingenuous.
I expect he also knows about this
I expect you'll be posting pictures of those claims on the sides of busses?
1- got a little coverage- a day or so
2- Yep that was played up
3- Humm got some attention, BTW since the vote have you noticed how the UK economy has performed compared to the rest of the G7 countries?
4 - as 1
Well, with only 3.6% of Leave voters needing to switch allegiance, pretty much anything can be said to have swung it.
To be sure the Remain campaign was terrible.
But 58% of leave voters had made up their minds to vote leave before the campaign started or the bus appeared, so they were unswingable, and thus your theory flops.
So? As I point out:
That's the problem with close Referendum results. They don't really settle anything.
As Nomad points out:
Sloppy reasoning? Typing in capital letters? Come on FG - you're better than that!
You do realise that that leaves 42% of Leave voters, and I'm only taking about 3.6%?
The only thing that flops are your maths skills. Shocking for an Oxbridge graduate.
Whether the amount on the bus was the gross or the nett figure does not alter the fact that people knew full well that it was a suggestion that could not be implemented by Giselda and Boris.
Oh, except JL48, of course, who apparently thinks these two backbenchers (one now retired) could have determined the spending plans of some future governement.
Of whom more than half had already made up their mind to vote leave, so were not swayed by the bus or anything else. And you have no way of knowing what (if anything) might have swayed the remainder - daft messages on buses from backbench MPs come pretty way down the list for anyone with half a brain.