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A couple of questions

Discussion in 'Supply teaching' started by wookster, Jan 23, 2019.

  1. wookster

    wookster New commenter

    Hi

    I've been doing supply since September after leaving my full time permanent position in July when the stress and anxiety got too much.
    Last term I was lucky to get almost solid work from October to Christmas. Since Christmas I've had a few days and in fairness I've knocked a few days back as refuse to travel an hour to schools.
    In the pipeline are 2 long term positions coming up one starting next week.
    My first question is the recruitment agency won't really budge on the flat rate of 120 per day even though taking on a class full time til July will bring with it extra workload meetings report writing etc what's the best way if at all to tackle this ? I was a teacher on up3 with a tlr so in my head would ideally like upwards of 150 a day.
    Second question .
    I'm worried about finances should I become poorly and say can't work for a couple of weeks. How do I go about protecting my income ? Does anyone have experience of this? I was thinking there might be a private insurance scheme out there somewhere?
    Many Thanks
     
    pepper5 likes this.
  2. greeneyes

    greeneyes Occasional commenter

    Remember that after 12 weeks AWR kicks in, the agency can't back out of that one. I'm on long term supply and used to be on UPS 2 with a TLR - none of that matters to them. Unless you're a shortage subject (I'm English and I've only gotten UPS once) you're likely to only get M6 after 12 weeks of working there. If you manage to get more sooner (some people I know have done) then well done you!
     
    pepper5, JohnJCazorla and agathamorse like this.
  3. wookster

    wookster New commenter

    Hi Thanks for your reply . What is AWR?
     
  4. JohnJCazorla

    JohnJCazorla Star commenter

    Quick google gave me this, link should give more detail.
    Agency Workers Regulations (AWR) - FAQs | Hudson

    https://uk.hudson.com/awr-faqsThe AWR are designed to give temporary agency workers equal treatment akin to permanent employees with regard to pay and working conditions.

    From this you should get equivalent wage after 12 weeks however there's a few traps to consider, the agency probably ends up paying some of this out of its cut.
    1. The school can sack you after 12 weeks and find another sucker supply to do the job to save a few quid.
    2. Similarly the agency can contrive to remove you if it sees its profit seriously reduced. I've no experience of this but it has been reported on this forum.
    3. Agencies get very creative with the Maths, for me it should be UPS3 / 195 but dividing by a bigger number on some pretext or pointing out (as @greeneyes says) that a teacher is doing it on M1. And where do umbrella companies and their overheads come into this calculation?
    I'm doing okay on £195 a day but that is little to do with my vast abilities and all to do with being long-term Secondary Maths/Science in West Yorks. I also do this by haggling hard to get that rate from Week 2 onwards. Could you say politely to the agency, "I'll do it this week for £120 and to see if the school and I suit each other but I can't manage to continue without a serious rise for the future"
    Then spend that week being the bees-knees and explaining that you are in dispute with the agency over pay. You might even find what the school are paying for you and use that to set a guideline. The agent wants the Easter bonus and holds all the cards re haggling so you have to pressure how you can.
     
    MissGeorgi and agathamorse like this.
  5. greeneyes

    greeneyes Occasional commenter

    What some schools say is that they will pay you what they would pay someone if they were to hire them permanently - so they may say that they budgeted for hiring someone on M3 and therefore that's your daily rate.

    I've been told that basically an agency charges enough for us to be able to earn UPS 3 however they obviously want to make a profit (they say it's covering payroll blah blah). Technically it's not the school's place to pay you the increased rate, it's the agency. But the agency still wants to make a profit on you so they haggle with the school about an increased wage so they can continue making their tidy little profit of £50 and above per day on you.

    Upshot is, you should see a rise in pay after 12 weeks.Technically they should be paying you £121.64 per day right now as that's an NQT salary divided over 195 days. I've been somewhere for 10 weeks now on £125-£130 per day (I haggled no where near as effectively as @JohnJCazorla!).
     
    agathamorse and JohnJCazorla like this.
  6. wookster

    wookster New commenter

    Thanks ok so it does seem to the normal rate then! I guess it's easier for them to round it down to 120 as a flat rate rather than that extra 1pound and a few pence !
     
    agathamorse likes this.
  7. wookster

    wookster New commenter

    Also a good idea to try and increase after the first week there.
    This is all if it comes to fruition of course!
     
    agathamorse likes this.
  8. greeneyes

    greeneyes Occasional commenter

    You say that @wookster however I should point out that this is (ARGH!) the start of my 4th year in supply and the basic rate hasn't changed. What has though is teacher salary. So agencies are still being greedy because really as day to day supply we should be getting a fraction more than £120! Don't forget they charge a lot more than that for us!
     
  9. JohnJCazorla

    JohnJCazorla Star commenter

    Agencies have a very simple philosophy when it comes to rates paid and charged,
    "Whatever we can get away with",
    there's a thread in the Headteachers' forum finders fees that points out agencies charge £270 a day for a Qualified Teacher and there appears to be no distinction between M1-U3 regarding filling that role.

    Haggling is unfortunately down to luck regarding location and subject specialism, however you should push that luck whenever it comes along.
     
    agathamorse likes this.
  10. greeneyes

    greeneyes Occasional commenter

    This is why they shouldn’t have gotten rid of the old LA supply pools. A gift from becoming academies, I guess.
     
    agathamorse likes this.
  11. yodaami2

    yodaami2 Lead commenter

    Yes, this! It incenses me that public money is given to a profit making organisation and not kept in the ed system to support the pupils as it is provided to schools for. Oops, poor grammar! But you get my meaning.
    #incandescentwithragewhenithinkaboutit!
     
    agathamorse likes this.
  12. gruoch

    gruoch Established commenter

    I complained that I was being paid for general supply when I'm planning, marking and cover a tutor group.
    I left teaching full time on UPS3, but am perfectly happy to accept M6.
    In my dreams.
    The agency very generously upped my daily rate from £118 - £125.
    Lucky, lucky me.
    Oh - and they pay via an umbrella company (no choice).
     
  13. greeneyes

    greeneyes Occasional commenter

    They aren’t making you pay the employer contribution are they?
     
  14. pepper5

    pepper5 Star commenter

    Don't accept a long term post for £120.00 since as you know you will have all the planning and marking that goes with it. It is outrageous that you are offered such a pittance for a role. If you tally up the hours you would spend doing the job and divide it into 120 then you would probably be on less than the minimum wage. You are better off outside of teaching if that is all you are going to get for all the hard work and stress you have to undertake to do a decent job.

    Don't accept less than say £170.00 per day from day one.

    Don't let schools or agencies exploit you.
     
  15. wookster

    wookster New commenter

    Thank you ... you are right but at the moment I desperately need the money. I am meeting with the head next week so once I am more fully informed of the role I will go back to agency and try and renegotiate a higher daily rate.
     
    pepper5 and agathamorse like this.
  16. JohnJCazorla

    JohnJCazorla Star commenter

    I'll diverge slightly from pepper's good advice here.

    Accept any peanuts for week 1, "We'll see if it's a good fit, but if I'm going to continue then the pay needs to increase significantly or I'll I'm afraid I'll have to go elsewhere."
    After a good week 1 you are in a very strong position to insist on proper cash from week 2 (week 3 at the latest). Still a lot of negotiating but the agency will be forced to apply its strong negotiation skills in your favour.
     
    pepper5, tonymars and agathamorse like this.
  17. Oldfashioned

    Oldfashioned Senior commenter

    I tend to agree to something like £140 a day but with the proviso that I won't do any meetings and will only mark/plan when free in school time.
     
    pepper5 and agathamorse like this.
  18. wookster

    wookster New commenter

    Yes indeed
    The more I think about it the more it annoys me!
    We all know that taking on a long term position will bring with it more of a class responsibility....from parents to meetings to marking and school trips etc.
    I am working there all next week so I will keep you updated if I manage to negotiate a higher rate !
     
    agathamorse, pepper5 and JohnJCazorla like this.
  19. pepper5

    pepper5 Star commenter

    Hi Wookster

    I can appreciate that you desperately need the money - most of us have been there or are there at some point or another.

    I agree with John's advice. Perhaps do week one for a lower rate, but if you are a good fit and they want you to stay then the rate has to go up significantly; otherwise you are better off at McDonalds or day to day supply.
     
    agathamorse likes this.
  20. Deirds

    Deirds Senior commenter

    Hi

    Have you signed up to more than one agency?

    Another agency might be willing to pay more.

    Also, if you have to accept the job, do so but don’t put UPR effort into MP1 work.

    Do it for a couple of weeks but look round for other work.

    If the school question you point out you are not being paid as a full-time teacher.

    Good luck
     

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