Connect with like-minded education professionals and have your say on the issues that matter to you.
Don't forget to look at the how to guide.
Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by angry jedi, Nov 7, 2006.
Yeah Gary, don't forget to write "distributing the piece" next time you fill out an arrest form!
Mr TES?? Who he?
However, despite all his braggadocio, I thought Gary had no more powers of arrest than the rest of us. Is there a citizen's arrest form then?
By all accounts his lessons weren't terribly arresting either.
Top marks to Lily for that lovely phrase, though, there is apparently a name for that. At first I thought it was a malapropism, but a little reserach suggests it may be an eggcorn.
If one were to find your posts unarresting would that be justification for treating you with contempt?
In my experience police officers will not be that interested in a child throwing a strop, swearing and throwing things in a public place as well as in a home. (Technically swearing in a public place is an arrestable offence, swearing in home isn't).
I disagree about teenagers stealing from their parents in their home, or assaulting their parents, or deliberately smashing up their parents' things. Most police officers (in my experience) realise that parents only call the police in these situations if they are desperate, at the end of their tether - so the teenagers will be arrested if the parents insist. I know of school-aged teens who have been arrested for these offences against their parents.
These are my experiences - happy to agree to disagree as this digresses from the thread IMO.
Agreed, like I said, as swearing in public is a Public Order Offence (Sec 5), not the case in a private place.
For the record (as JamesTES knows), I was a PC for about 2 years, so have arrested people, and can discuss what a PC could arrest a person for, and have real experience of this. The job caused problems with my young family so I quit to become a PCSO late 2008, where the hours are more flexible and worked with my family better. So no, I don't do arrests any more.
Back to the thread. Do any other posters have any constructive thoughts about Lilypop's idea of making schools less awful places for teachers?
Incidentally, are there any posters who disagree with the OP, and think the OP is exaggerating and schools aren't that bad really? I agree with the OP.
This question of whether the classroom is a public or a private space is interesting--- could someone clarify that for me, please? Seems very weird to me, that a classroom should be a 'private' space??? Am I missing something?
Oh, and yes, I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with every word the OP said.
How can someone who is as abusive as you are be invited onto TES?
A good question.
I was wrong to think that it would be good for this thread to drop, despite minivan's abusive, insulting attempts to ruin the message from the OP. The OP makes many valid points about problems in schools that many ignore, or are in denial about, or (worse IMO) seek to blame teachers for.
The question remains as to why teachers in schools should have to deal with behaviour that other workers wouldn't. "They've been trained to deal with misbehavour" doesn't come close to explaining or excusing appalling working conditions that can include being the victim of what are, essentially, crimes, and would be considered as criminal behaviour if experienced elsewhere.
Why is this allowed to happen, and continue, in schools?
A good question.
Acknowledging the problem would be an admission of a huge cover up by various institutions, LEA's and the government.
Institutions, LEA's and the government would have to act and I don't think any of them would have the will to sort things out.
This sort of thing shouldn't happen, for example, but does.
Equipment thrown about. How dare they - how little respect have they got for others' things?
What does this say about working conditions?
Unfortunately this is all typical - see first few pages of this thread!
This is why teacher retention is so awful year on year!
I came from FE to retrain in secondary. Despite teaching GCSE in college previously, I was originally told I could not take a school class alone until I was QTS. Now, anyone can 'teach'. We all saw it coming and we all warned about it. Qualifications don't = the ability to get the kids to behave, that's not what I am saying but the 'deprofessionalisation' of teaching certainly helped in taking the respect away.
After many years doing the worse teaching job in the world (supply!), I have now 'qualified' to work in a EBD school for boys. Getting spat at, bitten and kicked is a daily occurence and due to the learners' SEN status...it's expected. However, we are now in danger of closing due to lack of referrals....the LEAs can't afford us any more, keeping pupils in school is cheaper. Yes, it is going to get worse. The 'workforce agreement' was the beginning.
I never thought I would be praying, hoping and fighting (literally most days) to stay in a job which leaves me with fresh bruises daily.
I thought deprofessionalisation of teachers was a more recent phenomenon compared with the behaviour crisis which has been about since at least the early nineties. I'll certainly agree that there is less respect for the teaching profession now but we are not alone, read any police or NHS blog and they will probably be saying much the same thing.
I took "Mr TES" to be Raymond/minivan, who used insults, snide digs and dishonest misrepresentations of what I said to try to degenerate this thread into a slanging match, so the message of the OP would be lost and the thread would drop. It nearly worked.
What she said! Raymond disagrees, thinks there isn't a behaviour problem in schools, thinks : "Your views expressed in this thread were thoroughly obnoxious, gary" (his words, post 193). My views in this thread, ie that there is such a problem in some schools. Obnoxious?
That's a strong condemnation of a differing opinion - I'm wondering why he thinks it so appalling that the view of the OP about behaviour, that many on this thread have agreed with, is even discussed?
The view that what currently goes on in schools is not acceptable, that criminal pupil behaviour, the current culture of blaming the teachers for being upset with this, for blaming the teachers for being abused, assaulted and degraded should not happen. The idea that teachers in school should be afforded the same rights to Dignity at Work, to work without being assaulted or abused as pretty much every other worker (see signs in hospitals, railway stations, job centres, council offices.... saying abuse of staff won't be tolerated). This view is obnoxious?
Incidentally, Raymond is a behaviour management consultant. He offers ideas of solutions for working within the current school culture. This role would not need to exist if there weren't such extreme problems in schools, if teachers weren't blamed for being abused, etc. If criminal behaviour just wasn't part of secondary school life, just not tolerated (break the law and get arrested, be abusive and get escorted off site) behavioural consultants wouldn't be needed.
Just a thought.
I'm going to be busy with family stuff for a while. I think the OP gives an important message, that many teachers in many schools would find comforting to read, as it describes their situation. I'd encourage anyone who agrees with the OP to keep this on the front page.
It seems you don't want to let this go, gary, and are trying to resurrect it with untruths of your own. For example, I would be astonished if you could find anywhere anything I said that suggests I "[think] there isn't a behaviour problem in schools." I would also categorically deny that I have at any point suggested that the notion that teachers should have the same rights of dignity at work as other professionals is somehow "obnoxious". Of all the obnoxious things you said, that wasn't one of them.
You seem to enjoy spin - unfortunately, you aren't terribly good at it, and merely end up flailing about getting your opponents' views entirely wrong. If minivan hurt you, I apologise on his behalf, and I would like you to now forget it, move on and enjoy that family time you have coming up for a while.
You're absolutely right. I was completely unfair in my last post. Being provocative and rude unfortunately gets peoples' attention. I am sorry for the unfair spin I put in my last post. That was rude, unfair and dishonest. Sorry.
Now I have your attention, can I please ask if you agree with me that:
1. There is a problem in some UK schools with pupil behaviour.
2. This problem is made worse by people appeasing the pupils and looking for excuses to blame the teacher for the appalling pupil behaviour.
3. Damaging or stealing school/ teacher property, insulting/ abusive/ threatening behaviour and assaults can all be described as criminal? (I have legally arrested people for all these, so know it is. In fact, saying or doing anything that the victim finds alarming or distressing is harassment, arrestable on the second occasion if warned first time). All this is the case anywhere (including at work).
4. The above criminal behaviour is dismissed as 'misbehaviour' in some schools and swept under the carpet, ie not dealt with seriously. (Detention, possibly exclusion).
5. Crimes that occur in schools (see above) are rarely reported to the police - some SMT in some schools talk teachers out of reporting such crimes?
6. Pupils constantly getting away with serious misbehaviour (crimes), without any meaningful sanction makes the situation worse for teachers, ie awful working conditions?
Being serious, I don't think there's much in 1-6 to disagree with. (If anyone agrees, please say so, if not I'm happy to discuss different views).
The reason I'm not letting this go is because I have friends who teach, I have children in school and want all school to be places where my kids can laern unimpeded by criminal behaviour in their school/. I think the OP is spot on in many ways, things need to change IMO. Drastically. I can agree that in many schools there isn't a problem, that there is in any school bothers me. Teachers are currently working in abysmal conditions in some schools, pupils' education is suffering because of it.
Again I apologise for being rude and dishonest. Hopefully we can continue to discuss issues without the unnecessary unpleasantness we have both been guilty of. I am serious about being busy at home, but will pop back onto Behaviour every week or so to chip in with my view on things, if I have time.
Kind regards, Gary.
If you don't think there's much to disagree with in points 1 to 6, why ask?
Probably because he is interested in other opinions, what with this being a Forum etc
' This problem is made worse by people appeasing the pupils' ^ and looking for excuses to blame the teacher for the appalling pupil behaviour.'
^ and the parents?
But if he thinks there's nothing to disagree with, he doesnt think there can be other opinions...
Lol I don't think it's difficult to understand Gary, nor is it difficult to wish him well in his new career, in the pleasure of spending time with his family, in whatever hobbies and interests he has ... in almost anything, in fact, except his promise to keep refreshing his contributions here. Not because, I hasten to add, that he's not entitled to express his opinions, even though now for some years a non-combatant in education, it's just that he only has one opinion really, and he keep on expressing it, in pretty much the same words, but at length, ad nearly infinitum and it's ... well, I don't want to be unkind, but it's boring and a bit annoying. (Although I can understand that those who need to have their prejudices massaged by constant repetition maybe quite enjoy it.)
On this thread, however, he keeps on declaring his concern for the"OP". Ermm, that's the OP of November 2006! Now me, I'm not really concerned to read the same old entrenched "opinions" again and again, especially when they're accompanied by no real proposals that make sense in today's world, except the daft idea of rushing off for PC Plod every time some kid with SEBD gets a bit stroppy. No, it's the human interest angle that interests me, as usual. So ... what ever did happen to the OP? Did he find a new career and is now happily forgetting all about teaching (unlike poor Gary)? Did he write to his MP, and did it do a jot of good? Is he still nurturing deep burning resentment (like Gary) and out to get even? Come on, angry jedi, if you're lurking out there, spill the beans!