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61% of students excluded from school end up in prison....

Discussion in 'Education news' started by lovejoy_antiques, May 24, 2018.

  1. Catgirl1964

    Catgirl1964 Occasional commenter

    Yes,CheeseMongler, it would be very interesting to have these percentages. What might be more interesting would be to examine the percentages of students given many chances after internal exclusions who end up in prison, their schools having stopped short of permanent exclusion when maybe this would have been a better outcome as they could have access to more specialised help than ordinary schools can offer. After all, try as we might, mainstream schools are not experts in psychology in dealing with 'damaged' individuals. Pastoral support can only achieve so much.
    install and MarieAnn18 like this.
  2. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Should be something Ofsted look at and instead of feting schools who exclude large numbers of pupils, perhpas those schools should be judged much more harshly?
  3. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    Schools as an employer have a duty of care to all those on the premises. They are responsible for adults' and children's health and safety. If a pupil is consistently violent to others, then they should not be allowed onto the premises. Why should a five year old be expected to put up with being punched, bitten or kicked?
  4. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    A study in 2002 reported 49% of male prisoners had been permanently excluded from school and the Ministry of Justice 2012 study reported 42%. Less than 1% of the of the general population has been permanently excluded. The MoJ concluded that permanent exclusion was a factor in men ending up in prison but causation was difficult to establish.

    They don't. Quite the contrary. Ofsted are concerned if schools have high levels of official permament exclusions, and even more concerned about what they believe is an increasing number of (illegal) unofficial permanent exclusions ('off rolling')
    Mermaid7 and Stiltskin like this.
  5. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    or put another way, schools teachers and other pupils have historically put up with behaviour that would result in prison from over half of the prison population.
  6. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    You can't draw that conclusion from the statistics on prison populations. The 40%+ of prisoners who had been permanently excluded aren't in prison because of what they did in school.
  7. Catgirl1964

    Catgirl1964 Occasional commenter

    Perhaps what we should be discussing is - is inclusion working? Is the inclusion of disruptive and, dare I say it, violent individuals in mainstream schools the way forward? Is this adding to the stress levels of school staff and detrimental to the learning of those who actually want to learn?
  8. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    agreed, so neither can it be concluded that their exclusion from school has a single thing to do with their later incarceration
    Catgirl1964 likes this.
  9. Sisyphus_rolls_again

    Sisyphus_rolls_again Established commenter

    So the government should be grateful to schools for highlighting the youngsters that are likely to end up as offenders.
    Rather than criticise schools for this it should be seen as a massive help to intervening in their lives and taking proactive steps to reduce the prison community.

    Or they could do nothing and blame the schools.
    drek, border_walker and phlogiston like this.
  10. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter


    Good one.

    How come once school in Great Yarmouth lost 125 pupils of its role in a term and Ofsted gave it a "good". Other than it's run by one of the government's favorite MATs. It's a joke.
  11. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    It would be way beyond foolish to ignore the clear correlation. It should also point to the importance of addressing such young people in a way that achieves the most positive results possible, both in terms of their future wellbeing and in terms of the future financial and social costs to society
  12. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    but are schools funded and equipped to do that work? There is also a clear correlation between drug and alcohol misuse and prison population but I'm not sure schools can deal with that either.
    Probably best to go right back to the approach suggested by Gordon Brown (New York Sure Start if you like). Those problem families are well known to all services and churn out more children than most other families can afford to do. Perhaps the choice to live for generations on handouts might be a first indicator
    drek, border_walker and Catgirl1964 like this.
  13. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    Schools have a vital role to play in the lives of such children. Those at risk can be identified as early as possible and offered as much assistance as possible. It is in all of our interests to reduce the numbers of such children ending up living unhappy and unsuccessful lives. Unfortunately it will cost money. But it will also save us a lot of money.

    That kind of analysis belongs in the last century. Life is more complicated than that.

    I would also add further to the discussion a few posts up, that "off-rolling" commonly refers to pupils who are not excluded but are dissuaded or advised to move school, thereby keeping the school off the radar to some degree. A deplorable practice showing how schools have become vehicles for MATs and their leaders rather than places where the children from a community are educated and looked after.
    Vince_Ulam likes this.
  14. Catgirl1964

    Catgirl1964 Occasional commenter

    Scintillating, it's all well and good pontificating that schools have a vital role to play in identifying such children as early as possible but that is where their role should end. As others have pointed out, schools have neither the expertise or funding to do more.
    drek likes this.
  15. Catgirl1964

    Catgirl1964 Occasional commenter

    Sorry, Scintillant. Spell check took over but I am sure you are scintillating!
  16. englishtt06

    englishtt06 Occasional commenter

    I guess I am in agreement with the OP: this idea that schools have failed these students shows ignorance of the issues around exclusion. I've worked in some pretty difficult inner-city mainstream secondary schools where, even with the crazy behaviour on a daily basis, there were very few exclusions. Schools did everything they could to try and keep the student in school (yes - probably at the cost of the education of the students' peers, but that's another argument). "Managed transitions" were in vogue at the time, to keep the exclusion numbers down. However, it was usually just capitalising on the 'honeymoon effect' of the student settling into the new school.

    What I'm trying to say is that myself, my colleagues, our SENCO team, our SLT, our community support services tried very hard to keep these students in school as much as we could. (What NQT doesn't have to differentiate for behaviour?) More often than not, the reasons for exclusion are linked to societal causes/community/home and a school's ability to effect a positive change is very difficult. In my NQT year I had a Y11 student who fell pregnant by her cousin and she stopped coming in to school - no amount of differentation or targeted support could help her as she physically wasn't in the building.

    My good friend is SLT in a special school: often the LEAs try to transfer behaviour-issue students into a special school setting because there is nowhere else to put them. It's a terrible thing to do: both to the pupil themself and the special students. It's a completely inappropriate setting. However, this is because alternative provision (and PRUs) have been stripped to the bone: it started under the "inclusion" banner and has significantly worsened under austerity.

    It's not surprising many of these young people end up in prison. It is heartbreaking; but schools can only do so much. As the OP states, it's the implication that schools aren't trying that irritates me.

    The stats for ex-military (especially army) ending up in prison are shockingly high (I think it's one in four - appologies, no time to google!) and often conflated with reporting on PTSD which, undoubtedly, is a part of the picture. What isn't often discussed (but highlighted brilliantly by Michael More in Fahrenheit 9/11) are the backgrounds of these soldiers. Think of those students you have taught who wanted to be a soldier (infantry - with no or few GCSEs) - often, their background/support network isn't that dissimilar to excluded students: difficult home lives, poverty, poor neighbourhoods, few positive role models, little importance placed on education etc etc etc. They never fully develop the skills to maintain positive relationships or support themselves independently - the military is, by definition, institutionalised, so it masks the issues. The lack of "life skills" (for want of a better term) manifest themselves once the soldier hits civvy street.
  17. lovejoy_antiques

    lovejoy_antiques Occasional commenter

    One thing I've noticed with off rolling/managed moves is that when a student comes in from a different school there is always a lot bandied about saying the student wants a 'fresh start'. Unfortunately such students almost without exception immediately upon coming into the new school, pal up with the new schools biggest trouble makers. I guess its just a case of birds of a feather flocking together.
    drek, phlogiston and Catgirl1964 like this.
  18. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    I'm sure that you of all posters @Scintillant know that the plural of anecdote isn't data. The briefest search of Ofsted + pupil exclusion will bring up many comments from Ofsted on pupil exclusion and none of them are "feting schools who exclude large numbers of pupils", as you put it.
  19. Scintillant

    Scintillant Star commenter

    I have quoted one prominent example from yesterday's media. There are of course others. The Harris chain with numerous schools and govt / Ofsted plaudits have been known for it for a few years already.

    There are plenty of data. Ofsted have been bounced into action by social media highlighting it in many places to the point where it can no longer be easily ignored.

    People raising such concerns are often derided - as they were initially with off-rolling. However, as with capability and other changes to the profession, give it 12-18 months and you won't be able to find anyone who thought it wasn't happening.

    In terms of it being 'feted' the example I gave you couldn't have been a better one. Of course many schools will be criticised for exclusions, but I'm talking about what is essentially 'off-rolling' (as well as exclusion), where that off rolling is done in a calculated way to improve school results at the expense of communities, SEN children and those who need proper help. Blind eyes have been turned, but in this day and age, you can't hide the truth for long.
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
    MarieAnn18 likes this.
  20. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    Proper data would indeed be welcome.

    But based on my experience (for what it’s worth), if I had to have an educated guess, I’d say that it’s more likely that pupils so poorly behaved that they’re excluded go on to become criminals, rather than exclusion causing the criminality.

    I do agree with comments that it’s likely to be more complicated than that, that the data isn’t conclusive on either side, and that money would be better spent trying to sort out the lives of excluded pupils while they’re still young, rather than incarcerating them later.

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