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61% of students excluded from school end up in prison....

Discussion in 'Education news' started by lovejoy_antiques, May 24, 2018.

  1. lovejoy_antiques

    lovejoy_antiques Occasional commenter


    Not really a dilema as such, however i have just heard this figure quoted on tv by lawrence dallagio and george takei (or was it andrew ridgely!!). These two are nobly doing a cycle ride to raise funds for a youth development/social inclusion program. Let me first state i have no problem with this and hope it goes well.

    However, this figure was couched with well meaning rhetoric about schools 'giving up on students' etc. Without any reference to how many 2nd/3rd/84th chances students get in the current system, how much evidence is needed to get a child excluded permanently (or in some schools even for 1 day). Maybe there are some other percentages they could look into like..... 60% of new teacher quit after 5 years. 95% of students in state schools have their education adversely affected by the behaviour of a disruptive minority. 70% of the behaviours students get excluded for would get you arrested outside the school bubble. 80% of teachers are diagnosed with work related stress at some point in their career.*

    (*all figures quoted in the above paragraph are for example purposes only but probably not too far off the mark, i just didn't have the time or energy to break off mid rant and google it!).

    I don't doubt the good intentions of these two celebs. However a stint on supply in your average academy would help clear the scales from their eyes. People who last set foot inside a school as a pupil in the 70s and 80s do not seem to realise that the world of education has drastically changed. The days of tucker jenkins being excluded for not doing his homework are long gone!

    To conclude, when i as a supply teacher have the audacity to pull on an england rugby shirt at twickenham and deliver a team talk to the squad, or sing backing vocals and pretend to play guitar on a wham video then these two can lecture me on the implications of exclusion, and the challenges of inclusion! Rant over.
  2. 50sman

    50sman Senior commenter

    The issue here is what happens to these students once they have been excluded.

    THy are then outside the system

    Once inside prison they are a drain on tax payers for life as the chances of them getting work afterwards is zilch

    They will spend their lives either in and out of prison and/or on benefits.
  3. CheeseMongler

    CheeseMongler Senior commenter

    Only 61%? That's lower than I would have guessed. I find almost astounding if you think of it the other way - 39% of students that have been excluded never go to prison! Almost shows that exclusions work in terms of correcting young people's behaviour... or it just teaches them not to get caught.
  4. Bedlam3

    Bedlam3 Lead commenter

    So we should see an increase in the prison population then as the number of academies increases.
  5. Shedman

    Shedman Star commenter

    This is just for the publicity. Rather than do a single high profile event why don't they quietly and without hoo-ha give a few hours a week of their time a week to the causes they claim to hold so dearly or perhaps donate a regular amount from their swollen pay packets. For them this is a win-win situation, they get a shed load of publicity for zero expense to themselves but it's the gullible who sponsor them who are forking out their hard earned cash.
    drek, sbkrobson, Jamvic and 2 others like this.
  6. Shedman

    Shedman Star commenter

    This is just for the publicity. Rather than do a single high profile event why don't they quietly and without hoo-ha give a few hours a week of their time a week to the causes they claim to hold so dearly or perhaps donate a regular amount from their swollen pay packets. For them this is a win-win situation, they get a shed load of publicity for zero expense to themselves but it's the gullible who sponsor them who are forking out their hard earned cash.
  7. peakster

    peakster Star commenter

    Not always though.

    We had a boy about 4 years ago who always looked like a prison sentence waiting to happen. When he left we wondered when he would inevitably end up behind bars.

    But he didn't - he got a steady job and they have paid for him to go to college and get a professional qualification and he is doing really well. He's also got a really nice girlfriend.

    On the other hand one of our Year 11s will be in court next week - doesn't look so rosy for him
  8. Skeoch

    Skeoch Lead commenter

    The figure may be right - or it may not. However it says nothing about causation.
  9. LadyForlorn

    LadyForlorn New commenter

    Did you know that there is a strong correlation between hospital admissions for acute sunburn and sales of ice-cream? It’s definitely time to ban ice-cream....

    SJW celebrities irritate me. I file them into the same category as the celebrity chef (we all know the one) who wrote a book about cooking on a ‘tight’ budget that included shoulder of lamb (cheaper than leg apparently) and a pork dish that takes 3 hours in the oven, under ‘nice but clueless’.
    drek, Jamvic and phlogiston like this.
  10. catbefriender

    catbefriender Lead commenter

  11. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    My experience (admittedly anecdotal) is that the vast majority of permanent exclusions I've been aware of are for incidents that would mean being arrested if they occurred in a non-school environment.

    Feels very similar to causation to me.
    drek and sparkleghirl like this.
  12. armandine2

    armandine2 Established commenter

    A danger of conflation - in there somewhere - but the prediction is a well known one since teachers are the authority figures. Perhaps the conflation is around the pupils who are not often reprimanded as being well adjusted. When in effect they have been traumatized or at least frightened into submission.
  13. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    I don't know whether it's correlation or cause and effect but it doesn't surprise me greatly. When you think about how much kids can get away with before being excluded, a fair number of them are going get into trouble once they're not protected by softly softly school policies and SMT fears about exclusion statistics
    drek, nemo., MarieAnn18 and 1 other person like this.
  14. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    There are lots of things to consider.
    It is usually difficult to get permanently excluded from a school these days and many schools work extremely hard to keep students included.
    The behaviour that leads to exclusion can easily be extrapolated to the behaviour that gets you sent to prison.

    The question is about what support kids who can't cope in large classes in mainstream get. PRUs can take up kids, but my gut feeling is that there may not be enough of them. Other alternative provision seems pretty thin on the ground.
    The charitable institution where I work mainly deals with kids who have fallen out of mainstream for other reasons, but we have a couple who have come to us after school exclusion. There's a complex mixture of learning difficulties and special needs, coupled with drugs problems, mental health issues, feelings of social exclusion and considerable anger. We can provide a stable supportive environment during school hours, we can move them to happier mental places, but outside school they still struggle to fit with the societal norms and the perfectly reasonable expectations of the rest of the world.

    The bottom line is that no matter how wonderful and supportive you make the system, (neural-atypical) teenagers will still rebel against it.
    LadyForlorn and CheeseMongler like this.
  15. modgepodge

    modgepodge Established commenter

    A year 6 I taught last year who was excluded a number of times that year (and plenty in his new school too, I head on the grape vine) did physical things last year which could have resulted in assault charges if he was older. He also did things which could in the future amount to harassment, and once behaved in a way which could have been interpreted as sexual assault. All things he could have gone to prison for if he was an adult. The exclusions he received for this will not be the reason he (may) end up in prison - his personality and the parenting he received will be. I did my absolute best for that child and he did far more in the way of bad behaviour than any other child, which he was not excluded for. He was one difficult 11 year old, in a class of 29 largely lovely ones. I feel for people who teach multiple children like that, especially once they’ve big enough to physically intimidate teachers who are trying to help. Are these celebrities suggesting if children like this were not excluded, they wouldn’t go on to end up in prison?!
  16. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    When my first school found out that one of their former pupils was going inside for embezzlement they were really chuffed as it was their first 'White collar' crime!
    drek, ridleyrumpus, Grandsire and 2 others like this.
  17. border_walker

    border_walker Established commenter

    Would make sense for the 2 to be linked, but not that exclusion causes criminal activety.
    strawbs likes this.
  18. Catgirl1964

    Catgirl1964 Occasional commenter

    This is the price paid for inclusion in mainstream schools. One size does not fit all and the problems in society today which adversely affect the younger generation are many and varied. However, soft soaping these kids with the cotton wool pastoral support now offered in many schools is not doing them any favours. One day they will be out in the real world where 'a nice chat and a hot chocolate' will not be offered with every misdemeanour and umpteen chances given to make the right choice. A court appearance will be the result. I was under the impression we are shaping these students to make a useful contribution to society and this involves following rules or suffering the consequences.
  19. CheeseMongler

    CheeseMongler Senior commenter

    So what we really need is the percentage of prison inmates who were excluded rather the percentage that were excluded who are in prison.
    yodaami2 likes this.
  20. yodaami2

    yodaami2 Lead commenter

    61% of very very very naughty people end up in prison. I’ll go to the foot of my stairs!

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