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5Live reporting that Labour would back a second referendum

Discussion in 'Personal' started by vannie, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

    If true this is massive. Apparently JC has said that he would 'reluctantly' have to accept the will of the members. This will be interesting.
     
  2. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    interesting
     
  3. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

  4. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    what does this achieve though?

    more people ask for a second referendum, the liklihood is more people get ignored,

    OR

    we get a referendum and we vote

    OUT

    and nothing changes

    IN

    and then what???

    we say sorry,EU, we changed our minds, and sorry whatever percent of the population, even if its gone down to 20 or 25%, that is still a LARGE number of people very angry, and unlikely to go away quietly
     
    nomad likes this.
  5. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    At least voting a second time people (might) have a little more awareness of some of the issues involved and of some of the problems that might arise.
    Back in 2016 people were thinking about 2 million turks and the non-specific problems caused by 'brussels bureaucracy'.
    Now they might think a little more about real consequences although I doubt still that many care about the risks to the NI peace process.
     
    Flanks likes this.
  6. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    It is not so much a question of not caring about the NI peace process but believing that there is no risk to that process if, as suggested by all sides, there is no hard border.
     
  7. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    Massive? What is the question to be put to a vote in a second referendum?

    If it is "Do you accept the deal agreed between the UK and the EU?" and the answer is no, we leave with no deal. Few people (other than the Farages and Rees-Moggs of this world) would think that a good idea. Or would the answer "no" mean that the government should seek an extension of Article 50 (causing more uncertainty for business, especially as it might not be granted) in order to try to negotiate a better deal? And what happens if they can't? There are too many possibilities here for a binary referendum.

    If the government fail to reach a deal with the EU there would be no deal to vote on. The choice would then presumably be between accepting no deal or trying to revoke Article 50 - something that the ECJ has not yet ruled to be possible. If challenged, would the UK courts agree that a referendum is legal if one of its binary choices might prove to be illegal?

    And if there is a deal and parliament approves it, why would they then want to legislate for a referendum to challenge the decision they have made?

    And when might all this nonsense happen, given that the legislation, debate on, and preparation for a referendum is likely to take much longer than the four months left between knowing what and if there is a deal and the day when we are out of the EU?

    Basically, this is even more badly thought through than the original disastrous idea of holding a referendum. Two wrongs will not make a right.
     
    nomad likes this.
  8. koopatroopa

    koopatroopa Senior commenter

    Why should they go away quietly? We live in a democracy and part of that means people get to hold and express an opinion even if it isn't majority view.
    There are many reasons why countries have borders and "all sides" have different opinions on the conditions which would allow a soft border in this particular case.
     
  9. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    The main fault for this mess is David Cameron's - the 2016 referendum should have set a benchmark that 'Leave' had to reach (60% would be my choice). Any enormous change of this type needs wide popular support, which 52-48 isn't (as Farage himself said before the last vote), but 60:40, or 2/3-1/3 (another option) would be.


    A final referendum on either:

    a) Stay in the EU or accept whatever deal (Chequers version 2?) May has negotiated...or
    b) Stay in the EU or leave with no deal

    That might help navigate a way out of this mess.
     
  10. koopatroopa

    koopatroopa Senior commenter

    I think there would be a great deal of discussion. At the moment there doesn't seem to be wording for the Labour conference motion to support a "People's Vote".

    It needs two parts.
    • Do you think Britain should leave or remain in the EU?
    • If the majority still vote leave would you prefer: Option 1 Hard Brexit; Option 2 Soft Brexit.
    Obviously the hard and soft options would have to be outlined.
     
  11. SirPurrAlot

    SirPurrAlot Established commenter

    So you would argue if there was a second referendum with the question "Do you accept the deal or want to stay in the EU" and Accept got 48% and Remain got 52% (which is quite likely), what would happen? Presumably you would say that as the 60% hurdle has not been reached, things should remain unchanged and we should leave? Is that right?
     
    T34 and monicabilongame like this.
  12. koopatroopa

    koopatroopa Senior commenter

    I'm not sure. I think people might go for compromise and Chequers is the worst of both worlds for everyone except May personally.
     
    florian gassmann likes this.
  13. Flanks

    Flanks Senior commenter

    Personally I would have liked an immediate general election after the referendum, as then there would have been a clearer mandate for whoever ended up in government.

    However, since that didn't happen, then I think a referendum should only happen in the 'no deal' scenario. If a deal is reached, parliament can vote on it. If it isn't, then a referendum, essentially re asking the same question, and a clear meaning that a 'yes' vote means with no deal, would be my preference.
     
  14. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    Indeed, but that is something which needs to be resolved for there to be a withdrawak agreement. The EU is now coming around to the view of HMRC in the UK and various customs experts in Eire, that a technological solution would work.
     
  15. florian gassmann

    florian gassmann Star commenter

    A three-way referendum is fraught with problems. The Electoral Commission is obliged to assess the ‘intelligibility’ of the proposed referendum question(s) – a process which in itself usually takes ten weeks – and I think they would insist on there having to be be two separate referendums rather than a single two-part one (And there isn't time for one before we leave, let alone two).

    And what should the government do if people vote for Option 2 in your second question, but the EU says there is no time to renegotiate? The Electoral Commission might again rule that an option which cannot be delivered cannot form part of a referendum.

    The Constitution Unit of the LSE have done a very useful series on the im(practicalities) of a second referendum. Their considered view is that if every speed-up and short-cut were employed and ...

    were legislation introduced the day parliament returned from the party conference recess, on 9 October, the earliest Thursday on which a referendum could be held would be 28 March – the very day before exit day. Of course, the introduction of legislation so soon is very unlikely, and there is plenty of scope for delays along the way.
    They therefore think that an extension to Article 50 would have to be agreed by all 28 EU members for a referendum to have any real effect.

    https://constitution-unit.com/2018/...t-take-to-hold-a-second-referendum-on-brexit/
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  16. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter


    Which is why I said 'Chequers version 2' which will have to be very different to the current version to get EU agreement...
     
  17. peapicker

    peapicker Star commenter

    Labour will say and do anything in an attempt to grab power. The Nasty Party.

    So it's prepared to put the wishes of its own mob-rule members before the decision of the nation in the referendum. It would cause civil unrest. Many of those who voted Leave were traditional Labour voters.
     
    nomad and woollani like this.
  18. koopatroopa

    koopatroopa Senior commenter

    It very much needs to be resolved.
     
  19. koopatroopa

    koopatroopa Senior commenter

    The whole point of a political party is surely to set the policies its members choose and attempt to gain a position in government where they can be implemented.

    Why would another vote cause civil unrest?
     
    monicabilongame likes this.
  20. dumpty

    dumpty Star commenter

    The numbers are not there, this is a dead duck.

    The Tories would never accept such humiliation and, as with all of the big Brexit decisions, it will indeed be Labour members voting with the Tories wot win it.

    Corbyn knows he can play true socialist leader without fear on this one.
     
    woollani likes this.

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