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3 weeks suspension from school for believing there are only 2 genders

Discussion in 'Education news' started by dunnocks, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

  2. lunarita

    lunarita Senior commenter

    No. Not for believing it.
  3. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    yes, for believing it
  4. lunarita

    lunarita Senior commenter

    No. For saying it, for filming without permission and distributing that film.

    Not for believing it.
    Laphroig, JL48, mathsmutt and 3 others like this.
  5. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    for standing by his belief. On the grounds that it was scientific. And as for filming it and distributing the film, would you have believed his experience if he hadn't?

    he had already been excluded from his education before he started filming, and long before it was distributed.
  6. applecrumblebumble

    applecrumblebumble Lead commenter

    Two sexes male and female. Reminds me of a recent biology paper where the word gender was used mistakenly.
    Catgirl1964, agathamorse and dunnocks like this.
  7. WB

    WB Senior commenter

    I feel really sorry for the teacher.
    He may have had no choice but to toe the line.
    Now he's on YouTube with all sorts being said about him.

    After (possibly) 30 odd years of teaching he has this done to him. Very barve of the child to secretly film and then put up on the internet.

    I notice he didn't show himself in the clip.
  8. bonxie

    bonxie Lead commenter

    According to the WHO:


    The different biological and physiological characteristics of males and females, such as reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc."

    Refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed"
    The topic of sex and gender is not straightforward. There are people who are XXY instead of the usual XY or XX and there are intersex folk too. Gender is a social construct. Social constructs can and do change. They are also different in different parts of the world, hence this article from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

    "To Native Hawaiians and Tahitians, Māhū is an intermediate state between man and woman, or a "person of indeterminate gender".The traditional Diné of the Southwestern US acknowledge four genders: feminine woman, masculine woman, feminine man, masculine man.[ The term "third gender" has also been used to describe hijras of India[11] who have gained legal identity, fa'afafine of Polynesia"

    The pupil in the video is confusing sex and gender. He comes across as someone who wants to provoke an argument. The teacher in the video comes across as calm and following school/authority policy. Without video of what went on in the classroom beforehand, it is impossible to say exactly what conversation had gone on before the pupil was sent out of class. Unfortunately for the teacher, being a professional means not being able to respond to videos taken without your permission being put online. The pupil is able to say whatever they want and make an issue out of the situation. The teacher cannot respond by commenting online about what went on before and exactly what the pupil said that meant they had to be sent out of class.
  9. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    We should never accept pupils secretively filming teachers, posting the clips online and criticising their management.
    Well done the school for taking such a strong stance.
    Laphroig, bevdex, knitone and 13 others like this.
  10. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    I wonder how many gender specific toilets the school has?
  11. averagedan

    averagedan Occasional commenter

    There seems to be quite a few teachers who also don't understand this by some of the comments on here.
    AlexWood93 likes this.
  12. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    yes he is, but so is the school, and that is not really the point

    well, he doesn't to me, not at all, he comes across as someone who is upset they are being told something he knows not to be true

    yes he does, absolutely. I don't think anyone would disput that

    it really is

    male, because they have a y chromosome. Its very straightforward

    irrelevant to this discussion

    yes, But that's not the point. The boy is actually talking about sex, but no one has corrected him, presumably because the staff here aren't clear themselves. But that is not really the point, though.
  13. colpee

    colpee Star commenter

    It seems very immature on both sides. This is a school for goodness sake, why didn't they challenge the lad , or better, the whole class to undertake some research on the subject and supply some evidence for their conclusions? To close the student down on a 'not inclusive to say such things ' argument is both cringeworthy and unworthy.
  14. catmother

    catmother Star commenter

    We have no context of what has taken place before this been filmed.This has taken place in a school in the region where I live but I have no info about it, apart from what I've seen in the press.

    There doesn't seem to any other voices on the recording,apart from the boy and the teacher. Therefore,it does not seem to be taking place in the classroom where a whole class is taught.It feels as if the boy has been removed from his class and is now being spoken to by a member of SMT/the HoF or as this is taking place in Scotland,a Guidance teacher. For all we know,this boy has been bullying another pupil and this is the last in a long line of incidents. 3 weeks exclusion is a big deal in Scotland and would not be giving for just not having the same opinion as a teacher. Also,this video has been posted on some very extremist sites,so there is a whole agenda here.
    mathsmutt likes this.
  15. sabram86

    sabram86 Occasional commenter

    I do wonder if the school is in breach of the Human Rights Act 1998, which entrenches the European Convention on Human Rights into British law.

    The relevant texts are below:

    Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
    1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
    2. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. [Emphasis mine]

    Text: https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf

    The school would have to justify its policy in terms of protecting the rights and freedom of transgendered persons. Prohibiting the utterance of a belief that was almost universal only a few years ago seems wholly disproportionate, especially given the student only seemed to be expressing his belief. His agitation at being censored is understandable.

    An education system in which these issues cannot be civilly discussed and where the school's own policy seems potentially illegal and uninformed is unfit for purpose.
    Catgirl1964 and agathamorse like this.
  16. catmother

    catmother Star commenter

    There must be so much more to this than a simple difference of opinion in a debate. No pupil in Scotland would be excluded for 3 weeks for a simple difference of opinion. My money is this incident being part of some much bigger incident.
  17. averagedan

    averagedan Occasional commenter

    And that's exactly where hate-crime laws fit in.... I don't see how this could possibly be in breach from what you've posted.

    Also freedom of expression has never meant freedom from consequence.
    ridleyrumpus likes this.
  18. sabram86

    sabram86 Occasional commenter

    Freedom of expression does mean freedom from consequence when dealing with the state itself, of which the school is a part. It's the entire point of freedom of expression.

    The restrictions have to be "prescribed by law and...necessary in a democratic society...for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others..." I would argue that means the school would be within its rights to prohibit bullying and harassment of transgendered students, but that a blanket ban on discussing the issue is wholly disproportionate, injurious to education and, actually, illegal.

    The student's views were put very forthrightly but there's nothing overly offensive or bullying in the approach. He directed his comments, from what we can see, to his teacher rather than anyone else and he objected to the policy, which is perfectly reasonable.
    Catgirl1964 likes this.
  19. catmother

    catmother Star commenter

    Surely you do not believe that this pupil was excluded for 3 weeks for doing and saying no more that what is seen in the video?
  20. sabram86

    sabram86 Occasional commenter

    The video is the evidence we have with which to judge the school's actions. While I agree that videoing situations like that is wrong, the school's illiberal and possibly illegal action justify it, in my view. The state should never be allowed to forbid gathering evidence against its own illegal actions.

    Scotland is the most illiberal part of the United Kingdom - "Count Dankula" was fined for uploading a rather stupid video of a "Nazi pug". The government seems to have an odd approach to free speech.

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